Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 07 November 2019 19:24 UTC
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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 11:24:02 -0800
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To: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Cc: Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "saag@ietf.org" <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
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Hi Colin, Thanks for the clarification. If the intent is to get protocol developers to think, that's always a good thing. However, I think the tone of the document does not match this intent. I realize that this is purely subjective, but upon reading it I really had the impression that this document suggests that the downsides of encrypting transport headers outweigh the benefits. Perhaps the document should instead aim for a middle-of-the-road approach. For example, the document could expand the mention of QUIC into a case study: the draft could explain how QUIC considered these issues and made the informed decision to encrypt its transport headers. David On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 11:10 AM Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> wrote: > David, > > I don’t know what Mirja thinks is the desired outcome, but my intent – as > an author of the draft – is that you think about the issues raised and how > they relate to your protocol, then make an informed decision about what > parts of the headers to protect and what parts it might make sense to > expose. > > And, to be explicit, if you think about the issues discussed in the draft > and then decide to encrypt all the transport layer headers, *that’s fine > by me. * > > Colin > > > On 6 Nov 2019, at 17:52, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Mirja, > > Perhaps I misunderstood the document. The draft makes a lists > of issues that arise when you encrypt transport headers, then > concludes with a call to action to take these issues into > consideration. In your reading, what is the desired outcome of > this document? As a protocol designer, what do you expect me > to do differently when I design my next protocol after reading this > document? The tone seems to imply that I should leave some > headers unencrypted in order "to ensure network operators, > researchers and other stakeholders have appropriate tools to > manage their networks". If this is not the intent of this draft, then > what is it? What exact outcome or we hoping for? > > Thanks, > David > > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 11:14 PM Mirja Kuehlewind < > mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson..com <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>> wrote: > >> Hi David, >> >> This document is not intended to discourage header encryption but to make >> sure that operational considerations are taken into account when exactly >> design new protocols that should have header encryption (as well as payload >> encryption). If you think this document discourages header encryption, we >> need to fix that. Would be helpful if you could indicate to the authors >> where you think this is the case. >> >> Mirja >> >> >> Am 05.11.2019 um 23:10 schrieb David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>: >> >> I also oppose publication of draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt. This >> document discourages transport header encryption and publishing it could >> harm future protocol development. >> >> David >> >> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:04 PM Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > On Nov 5, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind= >>> 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > What I’m hearing is that 2-3 people think this is not aligned but >>> don’t actually say why exactly they think that >>> >>> That’s not what we’re saying. We gave reasons. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> _______________________________________________ > saag mailing list > saag@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag > > > > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > >
- [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-en… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Joe Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Frode Kileng
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann