From nobody Sat Nov 28 09:06:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D943A0BAD for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X5JU74I2Flah for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D61673A0AF9 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:06:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1606583193; bh=54788ihbhfy5Aru4wpsDJoV18myrwMJhQKKTNXCqYsY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=BtyzmCMakBm2aa9j3bZkrFp8JHcZI6HtVCkNFFxmix2Frw1xpT2kyRI0Q95lsnHv1 9d/T9SB9HTbZl5rUvRnI6sZvXgFeFseNC1hMJhgnVtC5k5B15TVSlvF7yqJyme0UuZ /cZg+zieqIwxek6nVmtoVbR7/H8NhbjWe4zio+28= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.42.229] ([77.1.27.60]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MQeA2-1kWUu71vZ0-00Nigg; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:06:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:06:31 +0100 Cc: Jonathan Morton , tsvwg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9B5474B3-4384-4A20-81C3-5251246AA594@gmx.de> <066C60AF-39A3-41EF-B9E9-938AA1A707F5@gmx.de> <5A423905-EFD9-4A93-AB46-BACF61FE2D2D@gmail.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3/idKET/GnLLiH+Esb8tx44+CwnuiPKSBKeMolnyGgX9n+753JB kp853LAg2C3wjRGXQu4coI2l40eUvXBVTjPhB5GO+4y/Oe8VgPTYsMidZt1mJUYQHH1nntP Nb6beKiFuekTaTRwYsqD78wGjmydMfZorezDYYQkSklFeMAj31zzsDHNDcSs5iprUKKYTWF yxGAnBWDD87nh1wli/1yA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:nKR/FSrZH1Y=:6IiOdzunZdSPDWsHZx0Rdd RktKC+pU2oQZDPg/60730G9zsYCxWruY725av/SZbyI2V+1iid3RhvBs9hi9qpucpoB5s1mRD F2+oy5GSwX2PFv9VZlWabLbNQ+xmMlGLFobJEs0Y8k68zUxy4oVdoJWYiKpn8o7xXqGaSwclM yTrjhfb20K8xeMGbXcRvqViZgpzHXfTvVN8Y+wLP5qEeuQuDFf+9rJ0UbPITLHTVYLBh2nZ5i vm9GIeAXiEakopemr0q1Agr7BEi7twbf0TTKD9PLER9WcoftSuiX3o2O4GujRDl7hrPsYx+O9 muigxtfX2YiWT2PoF6Wa9KCRocRphHSdC/D5RIfX7qKtvmirhBGiGQHlOJnUAlAdqOAJpZMIg +Sh7+mrMnCOqQhBo1Ea6KNceKsq8hi1vWQLJQEAg//qHwOVc0JfYqZgt2FJtndoQxctJcjne0 XcCiOGIiHoEFF6tUHXQhMa83L93uNLb2YONhfYLHb2n3Q1wJp0bMvwRFiltpto8UbWc2PcrTI 4utTk+6/h1mFa/CiZj5A8V1rquck8bq3aqcitmEQyMMs+SRp7pVka2H4S0ONw6VbLTGP9Kr+u LsaQo5DOqzZ+VhJGVKLaWNR9mDRdjJnp97Y6F1DFl1PZ91ZbxcYGc8qR1WuzkCTLFfC3E0Vhv 29sXTtLZWnT1/gO0THqmLYbefF9VYPa5jSbF/qfzNSORU5ApMER4e2GRoQVxG6CRVjuHEiEm9 JsEr0lJdwH+cFzGky2NIEL0QHXKf8eXW/SRUJM8nz0HohgwNALLi7rw5JqpfvYdzFKYL0avtJ oy8k0h0+xdOAu/inImNSAQ7jRTBbZ9Tlswt/vX1f7JoiGS4eG6bM5vXfrIK4Z+0SYtd/md389 Mkle4wVEkGkfFmjl8PyQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] feedback and thoughts L4S / SCE X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 17:06:42 -0000 Hi Mikael, I actually wanted to stay out of tis sub thread, but... > On Nov 28, 2020, at 17:24, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020, Jonathan Morton wrote: >=20 >> Take a random sampling of CPE devices, and see how many of them use = the above - or it might be easier to count the ones that don't. I'll = wait. >=20 > My ubiquiti APs come with it, but it's default turned off. >=20 > It's not only important of the devices have the capability, it also = needs to be default turned on so it's actually used (considering most = people don't change config much). [SM] ... if end-user devices have such capabilities, the big = ISPs that in all likelihood are the biggest buyers of such devices, = should have little issues adding that to their requirements list for = their purchases and making sure devices are configured properly, without = driving up the costs unduly, no?.=20 The fact that that has not happened is in itself a rather clear = indication that ISPs are really not that interested in tackling latency = under load (and why should they, often unhappy users will switch to a = higher/more profitable speed tier in a well-intended but not very = effective attempt at improving a link's usefulness). Now, for end-users that is a different issue, and there are = quite some, often on-line gamers interested in reducing their internet = access link's latency, that are actually willing to buy and configure = boutique devices, like the NetDUMA, or more down to earth and less hyped = (but IMHO even more capable) evenroute's iqrouter. Incidentally, both = are basically software distributions for relative standard existing = router's from other manufacturers, and yet people are paying a premium = to get those better behaving router OS, as latency under load = performance of stock router OSes often is not "cutting it"... =09 I note that L4S never reached out to those end-users actually = caring for low latency... instead they are trying to convince the ISP = market, without a narrative how this is going to imprive an ISP's = bottom-line (the you need to do this to not fall behind the competition, = is not a positive selling point IMHO). Best Regards Sebastian=