Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 11 June 2020 23:59 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:58:39 -0500
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To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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So, backing up a bit ... since the update to RFC 2026 has been approved. On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 10:46 AM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote: > At a high level, I find myself agreeing with David and Ekr: this document > doesn’t tell you whether to encrypt, it describes what breaks if you do. > According to the Conclusion, that is its goal. > > This document has described some current practises, and the > > implications for some stake holders, when transport layer header > > encryption is used. It does not judge whether these practises are > > necessary, or endorse the use of any specific practise. > > > > I was surprised, however, that it doesn’t go into equal depth about what > breaks if you *don’t* encrypt. While both sides of the coin are present > in the document, one side is presented in considerably more detail than the > other. This document starts off fairly balanced; I found Section 2 to be > an excellent discussion of the trade-offs in this space. Section 3 turns a > corner into an extensive discussion of all the things inspection of the > transport headers are used for today, weighing in at 14 pages. > Interestingly, this includes at least one example of exactly the behavior > that’s discussed as a problem in Section 2: > > > > A network operator can observe the headers of transport protocols > > layered above UDP to understand if the datagram flows comply with > > congestion control expectations. > > > > Dropping packets which don’t comply with the operator’s “expectations” in > a protocol they don’t understand is *exactly* why new protocols and > evolution of existing protocols want to limit the ability of these devices > to inspect their traffic. > > > > Section 4.1 devotes all of one page to the reasons why protocol developers > might choose to encrypt; the rest of section 4 describes various forms of > integrity and confidentiality mechanisms in extant protocols. The > remainder of the document discusses alternative ways to enable the > scenarios of Section 3 in the presence of encryption. > Are there reasons why protocol developers might choose to encrypt beyond what's pointed to in the draft, including reasons included by reference to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8546, which appear in 3.1 and 3.1.1? Is there a place that they are written down, so they could be included by reference? Best, Spencer > On the whole, I think this document could be suitable for publication as an Informational RFC; it provides real-world context for a trade-off that every protocol designer needs to consider carefully. However, I don’t believe its current state reflects, in Ekr’s words, “the IETF community's view of the relative priority of these concerns.” > > > > *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Lars Eggert > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:08 AM > *To:* IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Fwd: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): > draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020 > > > > FYI > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *"Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com> > > *Subject: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): > draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020* > > *Date: *June 9, 2020 at 4:41:40 GMT+3 > > *To: *"tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org> > > *Cc: *int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org> > > > > This email announces a limited-scope 3rd TSVWG Working Group Last Call > (WGLC) on: > > > > Considerations around Transport Header Confidentiality, Network > > Operations, and the Evolution of Internet Transport Protocols > > draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/ > > > > This draft is intended to become an Informational RFC. This WGLC has > > been cc:’d to the SAAG and INT-AREA lists courtesy of the breadth of > > interest in this draft, but WGLC discussion will take place on the TSVWG > > list (tsvwg@ietf.org) – please don’t remove that list address if/when > > replying with WGLC comments. > > > > This 3rd WGLC will run through the end of the day on Monday, June 29, > > 2 weeks before the draft submission cutoff for IETF 108. > > > > This 3rd WGLC is limited to the following two topics: > > > > 1. Whether or not to proceed with a request for RFC publication > > of the draft. The decision on whether or not to proceed will > > be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282. > During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi expressed > strong views that this draft should not be published – those > concerns have not been resolved and are carried forward to > > this WGLC. This email message was an attempt to summarize > > those concerns: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU/ > > Further explanation from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi > > is welcome and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are > > clearly understood. > > > > 1. Review of changes made since the -12 version of the draft that > was the subject of the second WGLC (e.g., whether or not they > suffice to resolve concerns raised during that WGLC, other > than overall objections to publishing this draft as an RFC): > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12&url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15 > > > > Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely > > editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the > > WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to > > track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. > > > > No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on this draft. > > > > Thanks, > > David and Wes (TSVWG Co-Chairs – Gorry is recused as a draft author) > > >
- [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvw… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Mike Bishop
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Joe Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Mike Bishop
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Kyle Rose
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Roni Even
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): … Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-… Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Christopher Wood
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draf… Kyle Rose
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-s… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-s… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] [Int-area] 3rd WGLC (limited-s… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-s… tom petch
- Re: [tsvwg] [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-s… Spencer Dawkins at IETF