Re: [tsvwg] New Version of draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt (12)

[Martin Duke <[e-mail]>]

I have no idea, but the draft isn't meant to be a point solution to loss
bits. I suspect loss bits are not the last time someone will want to expose
more info.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:41 AM Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:36 AM Martin Duke <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
>> (With all hats off)
>>
>> ekr,
>>
>> I don't think the encrypt-or-don't decision is as binary as you suggest.
>> Today, QUIC implementers can decide whether or not they will implement the
>> spin bit. As you well know, QUIC loss bits are potentially coming down the
>> way and this draft, in some form, may inform that discussion.
>>
>
> Perhaps, but what fraction of the practices in this document would be
> enabled by even the loss bits?
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>> I'll abstain from any position on the tone of the document until I have a
>> chance to re-read it.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:21 AM Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> Document: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12.txt
>>>
>>> I more or less concur with David's comments.
>>>
>>> First, it's really not clear what purpose this document serves.  While
>>> superficially an analysis of the impact of transport layer encryption
>>> as a guide to designers, in the context of the design and deployment
>>> of QUIC and SCTP/DTLS, both of which encrypt most or all of the
>>> transport header, it's hard not to read this document as an implicit
>>> critique of those decisions. It's not like there's some other big
>>> transport protocol design effort going on in IETF that would be
>>> informed by these considerations.
>>>
>>> With that said, I don't think we should neutral on this topic: the
>>> last two newish transport protocol stacks that the IETF has designed
>>> (SCTP/DTLS and QUIC) both incorporate transport header encryption and
>>> I haven't heard anyone propose that we design a new protocol without
>>> that, so I think any document that we publish should state that this
>>> is a good thing while also documenting the challenges it creates.
>>>
>>> However, this document isn't really even neutral: it spends vastly
>>> more time on the negative impacts to non-endpoint network actors than
>>> it does on the benefits to the endpoints, and while it does
>>> acknowledge those benefits, they are often framed in a sort of "people
>>> say" framing, which isn't really applied to the practices which are
>>> negatively impacted, which are largely taken at face value. Compare
>>> the following passages:
>>>
>>>    o  One motive to encrypt transport headers is in response to
>>>       perceptions that the network has become ossified, since traffic
>>>       inspecting middleboxes prevent new protocols and mechanisms from
>>>       being deployed.  One benefit of encrypting transport headers is
>>>       that it can help improve the pace of transport development by
>>>       eliminating interference by deployed middleboxes.
>>>
>>> and:
>>>
>>>    In some cases, network-layer use of transport header information can
>>>    be benign or advantageous to the protocol (e.g., recognising the
>>>    start of a TCP connection, providing header compression for a Secure
>>>    RTP flow, or explicitly using exposed protocol information to provide
>>>    consistent decisions by on-path devices).  Header compression (e.g.,
>>>    [RFC5795]) depends understanding of transport header and the way
>>>    fields change packet-by-packet; as also do techniques to improve TCP
>>>    performance by transparent modification of acknowledgement traffic
>>>    [RFC3449].  Introducing a new transport protocol or changes to
>>>    existing transport header information prevent these methods being
>>>    used or require the network devices to be updated.
>>>
>>> In the first passage, the use "in response to perceptions" creates
>>> the impression that ossification is just some people's opinion,
>>> whereas it seems to me that it is a commonly understood fact of
>>> the network that has been an obstacle to deployment of everything
>>> from DNSSEC to TLS 1.3. By contrast, the second passage implies
>>> that tampering with acknowledgments is "benign or advantageous"
>>> when there is actually quite a bit of debate about whether
>>> this is a good idea (although I recognize that you are citing
>>> a BCP which recommends it).
>>>
>>>
>>> A second way in which this document is non-neutral is that it focuses
>>> largely on network-side interventions which seem to be well-intended
>>> (i.e., the operator is attempting to serve the users
>>> interests). However, there are also a wide variety of interventions
>>> which are adverse to the users interests (e.g.., RST spoofing, as is
>>> done by the Great Firewall [0]). By focusing on the downsides of
>>> encryption
>>> while minimizing the harms that encryption is intended to prevent
>>> this document again comes off as largely a critique of transport
>>> layer encryption in general.
>>>
>>>
>>> For these reasons, I don't think that this document should be published
>>> without extensive revision.
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>> [0] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/ignoring.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:40 AM David Schinazi <
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Gorry,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for updating the document, and for slightly tweaking the
>>>> tone to focus less strongly on the downsides of transport header
>>>> encryption. It's much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> However, I'm now pretty confused by the latest version (-12).
>>>> Could you help me answer these two questions please:
>>>> 1) Who is the target audience for this document?
>>>> 2) What should that audience walk away with?
>>>>
>>>> I initially assumed that the answer to (1) was "designers
>>>> of new transport protocols". But considering myself in that
>>>> category, I don't know what I'm supposed to take away
>>>> from the draft. I was expecting the answer to (2) to be
>>>> "you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT encrypt transport protocol
>>>> headers (pick one)" but that's not the case.
>>>>
>>>> Here are excerpts from the draft's Conclusion section:
>>>>
>>>>    This document has described some current practises, and the
>>>>    implications for some stakeholders, when transport layer header
>>>>    encryption is used.  It does not judge whether these practises are
>>>>    necessary, or endorse the use of any specific practise.
>>>>
>>>>    This document does not make recommendations about what
>>>>    information ought to be exposed, to whom it ought to be observable,
>>>>    or how this will be achieved.
>>>>
>>>>    An appropriate balance will emerge over time as real instances
>>>>    of this tension are analysed [RFC7258].
>>>>
>>>> The messages I'm walking away with are:
>>>> A) there is a tension between folks who want to encrypt and
>>>>     folks who don't
>>>> B) we don't have enough information, it's too early to tell what the
>>>>     impact of transport header encryption really is
>>>>
>>>> As such, I'm now more confused than I was before reading the
>>>> draft, as it doesn't help me answer the question of "when designing
>>>> a new transport protocol, should I be encrypting my transport
>>>> headers or not?".
>>>>
>>>> I personally oppose publication of the document as it stands,
>>>> because I find it confusing and non-actionable. I would like to see
>>>> this useful content in a BCP document once we have enough
>>>> information to actually recommend something.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:09 AM Gorry Fairhurst <[e-mail]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The editors have just uploaded a new revision of
>>>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt following review comments. We are
>>>>> not
>>>>> aware of further review comments and now think that this new version
>>>>> is
>>>>> now ready to proceed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gorry and Colin
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12.txt
>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Godred Fairhurst and posted to the
>>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt
>>>>> Revision: 12
>>>>> Title: Considerations around Transport Header Confidentiality, Network
>>>>> Operations, and the Evolution of Internet Transport Protocols
>>>>> Document date: 2020-02-26
>>>>> Group: tsvwg
>>>>> Pages: 48
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12.txt
>>>>> Status:
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf...org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/
>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/>
>>>>> Htmlized:
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12
>>>>> Htmlized:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt
>>>>> Diff:
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-12
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>> To protect user data and privacy, Internet transport protocols have
>>>>> supported payload encryption and authentication for some time. Such
>>>>> encryption and authentication is now also starting to be applied to
>>>>> the transport protocol headers. This helps avoid transport protocol
>>>>> ossification by middleboxes, while also protecting metadata about the
>>>>> communication. Current operational practice in some networks inspect
>>>>> transport header information within the network, but this is no
>>>>> longer possible when those transport headers are encrypted. This
>>>>> document discusses the possible impact when network traffic uses a
>>>>> protocol with an encrypted transport header. It suggests issues to
>>>>> consider when designing new transport protocols, to account for
>>>>> network operations, prevent network ossification, enable transport
>>>>> evolution, and respect user privacy.
>>>>>
>>>>>