[tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap
"De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com> Wed, 18 November 2020 10:31 UTC
Return-Path: <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C8C3A177E for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:31:35 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RTB1P4-vYE2 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2114.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 326603A177D for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:31:32 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=R1MXh3eH0lpU/oeaFWv50+TiAnBQ2VbXjRwzxgpGXgRFDjCkEWphL1tIUFLAhvcVgl4JKyLCuTVt7e0DKeJovvVPcV9+At+Gs5F7trAbxPOFGVSLRwmB0iNtXNIkH/WxMRd042Yl73/DQZXGvAGMMzqv54l9s5sp1srdZIDyRreMusutjKLnto1muELTvr5PsWvG5hA0tSOBocOwzen01y8GpO4tMe1zosYbFkNeYQ059N+Jt0s8S2jk9oPJKeSrVhGvBXvY8zM9On6owvbixozx0u8vKq8jML0ptHVbahz/coZ2vUXhlqoTas8nV8AvCPjXveN38BX14XafktMWBg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=lY/17HDTe5ea8ASur3cAfRVKPskI9HAtNVmzDtg+rdE=; b=O3srtkBEMOtjA7fF81b1hW6a8StiAq6/LjaflQ4JqXU5k5hvpC2Z4WxpdywjtIMvAWd66XYbJg0EOjxyNbqbK3jwgnNu2LlhiDzqV+onHrxFQYFDNJwjGvhGBo1H1XA4L4bRNIxgwsOXlQHhJP1JZDRk29aXdFKBzF/E6N4GCv6drU2K1A/F04Acssc5ObXlbb6r6hKNqnDUrljYsciNiAQKm/W/QglyxQqEUcgLlcva0aLYwhN1V+FVcpDPUarY9Ig5QeiIirfIST3IyNr8L4SxYN85uz0iUj/LWScBNgXJpy1GcmJbFpVDHpY7ethyKxfVXXcP9caabLAPcjddLw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia-bell-labs.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia-bell-labs.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia-bell-labs.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=lY/17HDTe5ea8ASur3cAfRVKPskI9HAtNVmzDtg+rdE=; b=vJbyMdpGNNto9InATYDYTjCfgpe7DxHim+6BXrZIhbYfexxEENTfv3qmZi5dO2jIw4CyH5z/RuOe31KI7Pp5OgLh4ovqnINzGPoeB8dGgY+4DxT+eWfwX7eRP/YEE+YkV3X0EQpSJ4XFc7DPUDRQYeje/48ptOaDvgJT5mkkYrE=
Received: from AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:24e::12) by AM8PR07MB7668.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:235::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3589.16; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:31:30 +0000
Received: from AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e966:7a41:b22a:1560]) by AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e966:7a41:b22a:1560%4]) with mapi id 15.20.3589.019; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:31:30 +0000
From: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap
Thread-Index: Ada9kaHRGNO57vIZSgq7zPn1SuIYhA==
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:31:30 +0000
Message-ID: <AM8PR07MB747626CB7622CB89209018A8B9E10@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia-bell-labs.com;
x-originating-ip: [2a02:1810:1e00:cb00:210b:63c2:20dd:546d]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 08ce5297-8e33-4469-0b81-08d88bad1d21
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB7668:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <AM8PR07MB766880414FB8AE28AA2A39D2B9E10@AM8PR07MB7668.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: q53BPVVk99Ug/8V3NoKb0ydMB8bIYKTDWlTI21fRLnQMYvnxuXGiEUKxLRftlkJJ45R8ZodL0G9qSi87FwA19p3j+xfZwnDRhpjofCm4zXZFKlPKhhf5vn6H5JXXD/tMfK39WV9VO9MB0396i8MpQOyjWOvt3yT2DsiKvRI9lApl3u5zpKlJqr1E4Z3dhjyJXjMAIsbeWte/km3TTtci0evGRgnm2ZZvGqGE6yWj7yW9TQTci4e+uRnz39E8ZumqbuoJnQdNAH7d1IF+jgcoF9llNRYCku+9Qt1Lq4k/i1WWkOZGScQo+z2YrzHAHEeZx8QT/DDQT8GJgbaGWWTSIw==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(136003)(8936002)(76116006)(2906002)(86362001)(316002)(5660300002)(3480700007)(66446008)(71200400001)(66946007)(186003)(66556008)(33656002)(66476007)(52536014)(64756008)(9686003)(8676002)(6916009)(478600001)(83380400001)(55016002)(6506007)(7696005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: +ue7+AbwO/xGPnfPZGT7QJ99J3jin8w93qg+IZxjIuMuEdH1nfWvCh9nTxlQ+5BShWKvX2FpYxOYD2vkgJjV3Zepna7x+dzDZ6nuOgJ+SOKENJ+nxH3WKDVg1+EV1nELSQhnAwaSNITiPD1A9NrjCOj/lmEh2UR4k1W8jv+eTeMD/Ueh5w9kJVnbVv5/LFyNXX9P5nTN54EGqgyVqeplFKIHpK04fiPLdRtF+83ky3Z1NT9uS4ahBgJbIGRHanIWHvpHxRE6gerhk1BRZYwCBwH/S4E9iV/bO8BfVlhejYDgLqdnh9M13IAafl6tHc03he7JarnGGTmOGfZxWZnCKOxAniZkbqnzkM3PZea1zAqT5ZKPudEng0gkzu1LnlnBp4RJjBsDtDxilrOSi1eu9D5Ga54l3ZNnZPZsyIj0lMpqj/lpUwUuwI66eIVs/LjApJOhKgaH4b1e7fez9yqxCe8fYOrbB3+JaBVv9xMz6CSLScR6c8ujG6yt5U8ddcsTJs9SIqkdKdrzFliMbPUzwMlV1on3f/NEB8uHbGJi+dVQL9EPXWZzjsnQk3DJVQeNb9x7K3I+MiG8hFSic1DHqFHmdhIfgtgTzbRtenIhervZdhnStVxWkO7NO1+iLz2o8VnKS6GQC226Mk5IT79gNOuKGNqygxMOyr37sGj2kMm1tTntz5Qo0IWe0KCfIFwdqPR2tRN/sELIHwBaPaDDmsV+BR7j88+g2Jul7t/ZPo0zIg8yxHoXw8bV9dBXnFXytqt3wwJiZ5In/ikc8ZP4jk3vyQXEOA9YRRCctlVgV3leLvMxDVD+cjyezaZBnm9RtOrOU1Ma/NZPpEnhpCMBBfHYxijRhvK6zPnb3NyTjH8eiE16c3LykSiC56XX4wSOEkLloBtt8eHklQWOm23yX24FR3jtpawYvosPPOsjLztBWM5UL1MosYkWmmlR6g9mZycYJ0jlxUt7peTY98QchQ==
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM8PR07MB747626CB7622CB89209018A8B9E10AM8PR07MB7476eurp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: nokia-bell-labs.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 08ce5297-8e33-4469-0b81-08d88bad1d21
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2020 10:31:30.6167 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: iF0qd25X98GPeZrfORuhjqM1vHkAQyciXZU44AokEYqOQdTVJOs0zurHV/d3jzYNR7XUVWOQ646z1hylSTEOvoJHlV4Lrckl9i1wC1gjuvHkvphAyo6Y9czohRdMIyD5
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB7668
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/29ckf4XKZQLJdVs431YWJMLXfB0>
Subject: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:31:35 -0000
Hi all, To continue on the discussions in the meeting, a recap and some extra thoughts. Did I miss some arguments? Benefits to go for WGLC/RFC asap: * There is NOW a big need for solutions that can support Low Latency for new Interactive applications * The big L4S benefits were a good reason to justify the extra network effort to finally implement ECN in general and AQMs in network equipment * Timing is optimal now: implementations in NW equipment are coming and deployment can start now * Deployment of L4S support will include deployment of Classic ECN too! So even for the skeptics among us, that consider that the experiment can fail due to CCs not performing to expectations, we will fall back to having Classic ECN support * Current drafts are about the network part, and are ready and stable for a very long time now. * Only dependency to CCs in the drafts are the mandatory Prague requirements (only required input/review from future CC developers: are they feasible for you) * We have a good baseline for a CC (upstreaming to Linux is blocked by the non-RFC status) * Larger scale (outside the lab) experiments are blocked by non-RFCs status * It will create the required traction within the CC community to come up with improvements (if needed at all for the applications that would benefit from it; applications that don't benefit from it yet, can/will not use it) * NW operators have benefits now (classic ECN and good AQMs) and in the future can offer their customers better Low Latency experience for the popular interactive applications * When more L4S CCs are developed, the real independent evaluation of those can start Disadvantages to wait for WGLC/RFC: * We'll gets stuck in an analysis paralysis (aren't we already?) * Trust in L4S will vanish * No signs that we can expect more traction in CC development; trust and expectations of continuous delays will not attract people working on it, as there will be plenty of time before deployments are materializing * Product development of L4S will stall and die due to uncertainty on if L4S will finally materialize * Product development of Classic ECN will stall and die due to uncertainty on how L4S will finally materialize What are the advantages to wait? Do they overcome these disadvantages? Regards, Koen.
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Greg White
- [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Steven Blake
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Lars Eggert
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Lars Eggert
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Roland Bless
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Lars Eggert
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Steven Blake
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Reasons for WGLC/RFC asap Jonathan Morton