Re: [tsvwg] [Ecn-sane] per-flow scheduling

["David P. Reed" <[e-mail]>]

Dave -
The context of my remarks was about the end-to-end arguments for placing function in the Internet.

To that end, that "you do not mind putting storage for low priority packets in the routers" doesn't matter, for two important reasons:

1) the idea that one should "throw in a feature" because people "don't mind" is exactly what leads to feature creep of the worst kind - features that serve absolutely no real purpose. That's what we rigorously objected to in the late 1970's. No, we would NOT throw in features as they were "requested" because we didn't mind.

2) you have made no argument that the function cannot be done properly at the ends, and no argument that putting it in the network is necessary for the ends to achieve storage.

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 7:23pm, "Dave Taht" <[e-mail]> said:

> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:34 PM David P. Reed <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> A follow up point that I think needs to be made is one more end-to-end argument:
>>
>> It is NOT the job of the IP transport layer to provide free storage for low
>> priority packets. The end-to-end argument here says: the ends can and must hold
>> packets until they are either delivered or not relevant (in RTP, they become
>> irrelevant when they get older than their desired delivery time, if you want an
>> example of the latter), SO, the network should not provide the function of
>> storage beyond the minimum needed to deal with transients.
>>
>> That means, unfortunately, that the dream of some kind of "background" path that
>> stores "low priority" packets in the network fails the end-to-end argument test.
> 
> I do not mind reserving a tiny portion of the network for "background"
> traffic. This
> is different (I think?) than storing low priority packets in the
> network. A background
> traffic "queue" of 1 packet would be fine....
> 
>> If you think about this, it even applies to some imaginary interplanetary IP
>> layer network. Queueing delay is not a feature of any end-to-end requirement.
>>
>> What may be desired at the router/link level in an interplanetary IP layer is
>> holding packets because a link is actually down, or using link-level error
>> correction coding or retransmission to bring the error rate down to an acceptable
>> level before declaring it down. But that's quite different - it's the link level
>> protocol, which aims to deliver minimum queueing delay under tough conditions,
>> without buffering more than needed for that (the number of bits that fit in the
>> light-speed transmission at the transmission rate.
> 
> As I outlined in my mit wifi talk - 1 layer of retry of at the wifi
> mac layer made it
> work, in 1998, and that seemed a very acceptable compromise at the
> time. Present day
> retries at the layer, not congestion controlled, is totally out of hand.
> 
> In thinking about starlink's mac, and mobility, I gradulally came to
> the conclusion that
> 1 retry from satellites 550km up (3.6ms rtt) was needed, as much as I
> disliked the idea.
> 
> I still dislike retries at layer 2, even for nearby sats. really
> complicates things. so for all I know I'll be advocating ripping 'em
> out in starlink, if they are indeed, in there, next week.
> 
>> So, the main reason I'm saying this is because again, there are those who want to
>> implement the TCP function of reliable delivery of each packet in the links.
>> That's a very bad idea.
> 
> It was tried in the arpanet, and didn't work well there. There's a
> good story about many
> of the flaws of the Arpanet's design, including that problem, in the
> latter half of Kleinrock's second book on queue theory, at least the
> first edition...
> 
> Wifi (and 345g) re-introduced the same problem with retransmits and
> block acks at layer 2.
> 
> and after dissecting my ecn battlemesh data and observing what the
> retries at the mac layer STILL do on wifi with the current default
> wifi codel target (20ms AFTER two txops are in the hardware) currently
> achieve (50ms, which is 10x worse than what we could do and still
> better performance under load than any other shipping physical layer
> we have with fifos)... and after thinking hard about nagle's thought
> that "every application has a right to one packet in the network", and
> this very long thread reworking the end to end argument in a similar,
> but not quite identical direction, I'm coming to a couple conclusions
> I'd possibly not quite expressed well before.
> 
> 1) transports should treat an RFC3168 CE coupled with loss (drop and
> mark) as an even stronger signal of congestion than either, and that
> this bit of the codel algorithm,
> when ecn is in use, is wrong, and has always been wrong:
> 
> https://github.com/dtaht/fq_codel_fast/blob/master/codel_impl.h#L178
> 
> (we added this arbitrarily to codel in the 5th day of development in
> 2012. Using FQ masked it's effects on light traffic)
> 
> What it should do instead is peek the queue and drop until it hits a
> markable packet, at the very least.
> 
> Pie has an arbitrary drop at 10% figure, which does lighten the load
> some... cake used to have drop and mark also until a year or two
> back...
> 
> 2) At low rates and high contention, we really need pacing and fractional cwnd.
> 
> (while I would very much like to see a dynamic reduction of MSS tried,
> that too has a bottom limit)
> 
> even then, drop as per bullet 1.
> 
> 3) In the end, I could see a world with SCE marks, and CE being
> obsoleted in favor of drop, or CE only being exerted on really light
> loads similar to (or less than!) what the arbitrary 10% figure for pie
> uses
> 
> 4) in all cases, I vastly prefer somehow ultimately shifting greedy
> transports to RTT rather than drop or CE as their primary congestion
> control indicator. FQ makes that feasible today. With enough FQ
> deployed for enough congestive scenarios and hardware, and RTT
> becoming the core indicator for more transports, single queued designs
> become possible in the distant future.
> 
> 
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:18pm, "David P. Reed" <[e-mail]> said:
>>
>> > I do want to toss in my personal observations about the "end-to-end argument"
>> > related to per-flow-scheduling. (Such arguments are, of course, a class of
>> > arguments to which my name is attached. Not that I am a judge/jury of such
>> > questions...)
>> >
>> > A core principle of the Internet design is to move function out of the
>> network,
>> > including routers and middleboxes, if those functions
>> >
>> > a) can be properly accomplished by the endpoints, and
>> > b) are not relevant to all uses of the Internet transport fabric being used by
>> the
>> > ends.
>> >
>> > The rationale here has always seemed obvious to me. Like Bob Briscoe suggests,
>> we
>> > were very wary of throwing features into the network that would preclude
>> > unanticipated future interoperability needs, new applications, and new
>> technology
>> > in the infrastructure of the Internet as a whole.
>> >
>> > So what are we talking about here (ignoring the fine points of SCE, some of
>> which
>> > I think are debatable - especially the focus on TCP alone, since much traffic
>> will
>> > likely move away from TCP in the near future.
>> >
>> > A second technical requirement (necessary invariant) of the Internet's
>> transport
>> > is that the entire Internet depends on rigorously stopping queueing delay from
>> > building up anywhere except at the endpoints, where the ends can manage it.This
>> is
>> > absolutely critical, though it is peculiar in that many engineers, especially
>> > those who work at the IP layer and below, have a mental model of routing as
>> > essentially being about building up queueing delay (in order to manage priority
>> in
>> > some trivial way by building up the queue on purpose, apparently).
>> >
>> > This second technical requirement cannot be resolved merely by the endpoints.
>> > The reason is that the endpoints cannot know accurately what host-host paths
>> share
>> > common queues.
>> >
>> > This lack of a way to "cooperate" among independent users of a queue cannot be
>> > solved by a purely end-to-end solution. (well, I suppose some genius might
>> invent
>> > a way, but I have not seen one in my 36 years closely watching the Internet in
>> > operation since it went live in 1983.)
>> >
>> > So, what the end-to-end argument would tend to do here, in my opinion, is to
>> > provide the most minimal mechanism in the devices that are capable of building
>> up
>> > a queue in order to allow all the ends sharing that queue to do their job -
>> which
>> > is to stop filling up the queue!
>> >
>> > Only the endpoints can prevent filling up queues. And depending on the
>> protocol,
>> > they may need to make very different, yet compatible choices.
>> >
>> > This is a question of design at the architectural level. And the future
>> matters.
>> >
>> > So there is an end-to-end argument to be made here, but it is a subtle one.
>> >
>> > The basic mechanism for controlling queue depth has been, and remains, quite
>> > simple: dropping packets. This has two impacts: 1) immediately reducing
>> queueing
>> > delay, and 2) signalling to endpoints that are paying attention that they have
>> > contributed to an overfull queue.
>> >
>> > The optimum queueing delay in a steady state would always be one packet or
>> less.
>> > Kleinrock has shown this in the last few years. Of course there aren't steady
>> > states. But we don't want a mechanism that can't converge to that steady state
>> > *quickly*, for all queues in the network.
>> >
>> > Another issue is that endpoints are not aware of the fact that packets can
>> take
>> > multiple paths to any destination. In the future, alternate path choices can
>> be
>> > made by routers (when we get smarter routing algorithms based on traffic
>> > engineering).
>> >
>> > So again, some minimal kind of information must be exposed to endpoints that
>> will
>> > continue to communicate. Again, the routers must be able to help a wide variety
>> of
>> > endpoints with different use cases to decide how to move queue buildup out of
>> the
>> > network itself.
>> >
>> > Now the decision made by the endpoints must be made in the context of
>> information
>> > about fairness. Maybe this is what is not obvious.
>> >
>> > The most obvious notion of fairness is equal shares among source host, dest
>> host
>> > pairs. There are drawbacks to that, but the benefit of it is that it affects
>> the
>> > IP layer alone, and deals with lots of boundary cases like the case where a
>> single
>> > host opens a zillion TCP connections or uses lots of UDP source ports or
>> > destinations to somehow "cheat" by appearing to have "lots of flows".
>> >
>> > Another way to deal with dividing up flows is to ignore higher level protocol
>> > information entirely, and put the flow idenfitication in the IP layer. A 32-bit
>> or
>> > 64-bit random number could be added as an "option" to IP to somehow extend the
>> > flow space.
>> >
>> > But that is not the most important thing today.
>> >
>> > I write this to say:
>> > 1) some kind of per-flow queueing, during the transient state where a queue is
>> > overloaded before packets are dropped would provide much needed information to
>> the
>> > ends of every flow sharing a common queue.
>> > 2) per-flow queueing, minimized to a very low level, using IP envelope address
>> > information (plus maybe UDP and TCP addresses for those protocols in an
>> extended
>> > address-based flow definition) is totally compatible with end-to-end
>> arguments,
>> > but ONLY if the decisions made are certain to drive queueing delay out of the
>> > router to the endpoints.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 5:33pm, "Sebastian Moeller" <[e-mail]>
>> said:
>> >
>> >> Dear Bob, dear IETF team,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Jun 19, 2019, at 16:12, Bob Briscoe <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Jake, all,
>> >>>
>> >>> You may not be aware of my long history of concern about how per-flow
>> scheduling
>> >>> within endpoints and networks will limit the Internet in future. I find
>> per-flow
>> >>> scheduling a violation of the e2e principle in such a profound way - the
>> dynamic
>> >>> choice of the spacing between packets - that most people don't even associate
>> it
>> >>> with the e2e principle.
>> >>
>> >>      This does not rhyme well with the L4S stated advantage of allowing
>> packet
>> >> reordering (due to mandating RACK for all L4S tcp endpoints). Because surely
>> >> changing the order of packets messes up the "the dynamic choice of the
>> spacing
>> >> between packets" in a significant way. IMHO it is either L4S is great because
>> it
>> >> will give intermediate hops more leeway to re-order packets, or "a sender's
>> >> packet spacing" is sacred, please make up your mind which it is.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> I detected that you were talking about FQ in a way that might have assumed
>> my
>> >>> concern with it was just about implementation complexity. If you (or anyone
>> >>> watching) is not aware of the architectural concerns with per-flow
>> scheduling, I
>> >>> can enumerate them.
>> >>
>> >>      Please do not hesitate to do so after your deserved holiday, and please
>> state a
>> >> superior alternative.
>> >>
>> >> Best Regards
>> >>      Sebastian
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> I originally started working on what became L4S to prove that it was possible
>> to
>> >>> separate out reducing queuing delay from throughput scheduling. When Koen and
>> I
>> >>> started working together on this, we discovered we had identical concerns on
>> >>> this.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Bob
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> ________________________________________________________________
>> >>> Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
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> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Dave Täht
> CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> http://www.teklibre.com
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