Re: [GNAP] Will GNAP support Zero Trust Architecture?

[Alan Karp <[e-mail]>]

Adrian Gropper <[e-mail]> wrote:

>
> In this design, the AS is the AS-RS and the agent is the AS-RO. By my
> definition, this model has two ASs since both are processing requests into
> tokens. The problem with this is complexity and privacy. The RO may not
> want to share the request information with the AS-RS.
>

More precisely, RO has no choice but to present the required information to
AS-RS if RO wants an access token.  However, RO does not want AS-RS to know
the policy by which RO delegates tokens.  That's why RO uses AS-RO for
those delegations.

--------------
Alan Karp


On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 7:41 PM Adrian Gropper <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Thank you for creating the issue. My definition of AS is independent of
> AS-RO or AS-RS.
> https://github.com/ietf-wg-gnap/gnap-core-protocol/issues/223#issuecomment-806280421
> I also agree with Alan's definition based on delegation. An AS-RS would be
> a delegate of the RS.
>
> Based on that, I see it as obvious that the policy has to be accessible
> (defined locally?) in order for it to be run as the code that turns a
> request into an access token.
>
> The only other possibility is that the request is packaged by the AS and
> sent elsewhere (an agent) for evaluation against policy and a proto-token
> returned. In that case the AS is acting as a proxy and the PDP is
> elsewhere. I can imagine that an AS-RS would behave this way so that the
> proto-token could be turned into an access token by the AS-RS. Isn't this
> what Justin is proposing? In this design, the AS is the AS-RS and the agent
> is the AS-RO. By my definition, this model has two ASs since both are
> processing requests into tokens. The problem with this is complexity and
> privacy. The RO may not want to share the request information with the
> AS-RS.
>
> Adrian
>
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 5:21 PM Fabien Imbault <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
>> Isn't that what the AS is supposed to be, only with the caveat that the
>> policy is defined locally?
>>
>> Fabien
>>
>>
>> Le mer. 24 mars 2021 à 20:17, Alan Karp <[e-mail]> a écrit :
>>
>>> AS-RO is an AS that RO trusts to delegate RO's access tokens according
>>> to RO's policies.
>>>
>>> --------------
>>> Alan Karp
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:36 AM Fabien Imbault <[e-mail]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Alan and Adrian,
>>>>
>>>> I've created issue AS-RO policy delegation (
>>>> https://github.com/ietf-wg-gnap/gnap-core-protocol/issues/223) to
>>>> capture your input.
>>>> A first question that arises: can we give a definition to AS-RO?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Fabien
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 4:15 PM Alan Karp <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fabien Imbault <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but in that flow, the token relationship between AS-RS and AS-RO
>>>>>> is only secure if the tokens issued by AS-RS are cryptographically
>>>>>> attenuable in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Attenuated delegation is a requirement, but that doesn't have to be
>>>>> done cryptographically.  Token exchange works just fine.  SPKI and zcap-ld
>>>>> are examples of the crypto approach, and we used token exchange in the
>>>>> system for HP.
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------
>>>>> Alan Karp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 4:12 AM Fabien Imbault <
>>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but in that flow, the token relationship between AS-RS and AS-RO
>>>>>> is only secure if the tokens issued by AS-RS are cryptographically
>>>>>> attenuable in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fabien
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:26 PM Alan Karp <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Justin Richer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But with all that in mind, I think the key here is going to be
>>>>>>>> looking at what the inputs to the AS are, and how those can be defined in
>>>>>>>> an interoperable way for AS’s that can accept them. I think there’s a lot
>>>>>>>> of room for innovation and flexibility here that doesn’t break the trust
>>>>>>>> model or core use cases. If I have an AS-RS set that won’t accept my
>>>>>>>> favorite flavor of policy engine inputs, then I can decide not to use that
>>>>>>>> one. But this is a very different question than saying the RS itself needs
>>>>>>>> to accept my own AS — and we can’t keep conflating these two models.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree.  The point of having an AS-RO is to allow RO to specify a
>>>>>>> policy for which of RO's access tokens should be delegated under what
>>>>>>> conditions.  AS-RS should not need to understand those policies.  The flow
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - RO contacts AS-RS and gets one or more access tokens.
>>>>>>>    - RO delegates one or more of those tokens, potentially
>>>>>>>    sub-scoped, to AS-RO.
>>>>>>>    - A different user contacts AS-RO to get a potentially
>>>>>>>    sub-scoped access token from AS-RO.
>>>>>>>    - That user presents the access token delegated by AS-RO when
>>>>>>>    invoking the resource.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AS-RS only needs to verify that the delegation chain is legitimate,
>>>>>>> e.g., no increase in scope, and that it grants permission for the request
>>>>>>> being made.  AS-RS does not need to understand the policy behind granting
>>>>>>> the delegation by AS-RO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>> Alan Karp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:40 AM Justin Richer <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think this shows the problem with the terminology as it’s been
>>>>>>>> applied in this conversation, which I’ve tried to shine light on before.
>>>>>>>> What you and others are calling the “RS” is really the “AS and RS working
>>>>>>>> together” — everything to the right of the line. When Denis had brought up
>>>>>>>> “eliminating the AS” in another thread, what he’d really done is labeled
>>>>>>>> everything to the right of the line as the “RS”. Of course, the irony here
>>>>>>>> is that everything to the right of the line used all be called the “AS” or
>>>>>>>> simply “server” in the OAuth 1 days. As you say below, I don’t want the
>>>>>>>> client to have visibility on what happens on that side.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note well: The Google+ logo labeled “IdP” in the diagram is not the
>>>>>>>> AS, as far as GNAP is concerned. It does not issue an access token that the
>>>>>>>> RS will accept. The elements to the left of the line could be a lot of
>>>>>>>> things, but they are NOT the AS — by definition. The client lives over on
>>>>>>>> the left, but so do any external inputs to the AS. These could be policy
>>>>>>>> inputs on behalf of the RO, they could be presentation artifacts, they
>>>>>>>> could be federated logins, they could be the output of policy decisions.
>>>>>>>> How the AS comes to trust those things is up to the AS’s implementation.
>>>>>>>> It’s something we can talk about, but ultimately GNAP won’t be in any
>>>>>>>> position to dictate because in practice some AS’s are simply going to
>>>>>>>> internalize all policies and we will never successfully force those open.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But with all that in mind, I think the key here is going to be
>>>>>>>> looking at what the inputs to the AS are, and how those can be defined in
>>>>>>>> an interoperable way for AS’s that can accept them. I think there’s a lot
>>>>>>>> of room for innovation and flexibility here that doesn’t break the trust
>>>>>>>> model or core use cases. If I have an AS-RS set that won’t accept my
>>>>>>>> favorite flavor of policy engine inputs, then I can decide not to use that
>>>>>>>> one. But this is a very different question than saying the RS itself needs
>>>>>>>> to accept my own AS — and we can’t keep conflating these two models.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So to me, GNAP can support a Zero Trust Architecture by LEVERAGING
>>>>>>>> the AS, not by subsuming or eliminating it. It is in fact the AS, not the
>>>>>>>> client and not the RS, that will request and consume the results of a
>>>>>>>> privacy-preserving zero-trust policy query thing. Anything that happens
>>>>>>>> downstream from that is of little concern to the zero-trust components
>>>>>>>> because, as you point out, it’s on the “other side” of the line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we got this basic component model pretty right in OAuth:
>>>>>>>> the AS and RS and client working together. Where OAuth misses the mark is
>>>>>>>> the assumption that the user has to log in to the AS through a webpage and
>>>>>>>> interact directly, thereby proving they’re the RO. It’s this latter space
>>>>>>>> where I think we can both push innovation and also address the important
>>>>>>>> and compelling use cases like the ones you’re bringing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2021, at 2:14 PM, Adrian Gropper <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, Justin. As a Resource Owner, I look at the RS trust
>>>>>>>> boundary (the dotted line in the diagram) as being the RS. I don't expect
>>>>>>>> any visibility into what's going on on the right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My problem with the framing you propose is that requests are going
>>>>>>>> to the RS (or the AS-RS) and I don't want to share my policies with the
>>>>>>>> AS-RS. I want to keep the RS and AS-RS as ignorant as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 1:48 PM Justin Richer <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adrian,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What you’re discussing below, in terms of logging in to a site, is
>>>>>>>>> not approaching the RS. You are in fact approaching the client, and
>>>>>>>>> identifying both the AS and RS to the client. The client is a client *of
>>>>>>>>> your identity* in this model, and the RS is part of the identity
>>>>>>>>> provider. It’s really important that we don’t conflate the RS and client in
>>>>>>>>> this way as it leads to a lot of confusion downstream and a lot of broken
>>>>>>>>> trust boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With that model in mind, approaching the “RS" and providing it
>>>>>>>>> your identity is really just a case of the “federated login to AS” pattern
>>>>>>>>> that we discussed on the WG call. The user here approaches an RS, which has
>>>>>>>>> its own AS. To share things from this RS, the RO has to authenticate to the
>>>>>>>>> RS’s AS. This particular AS allows the RO to do so using an external
>>>>>>>>> identity — in which case, the AS is now a “client” of a separate,
>>>>>>>>> disconnected (but layered) delegation. The ultimate client that eventually
>>>>>>>>> calls the RS down the way may or may not know about these layers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <PastedGraphic-1.png>
>>>>>>>>> This same AS, which is closely tied to the RS and trusted by the
>>>>>>>>> RS, might also take in FIDO credentials, or DIDs, or any number of other
>>>>>>>>> proof mechanisms. The output of this is an access token the RS trusts, but
>>>>>>>>> the input is up to the AS. The RS is not what you’re logging in to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2021, at 1:28 PM, Adrian Gropper <
>>>>>>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I too am in favor of avoiding consolidation and correlation. Right
>>>>>>>>> now, when I approach a service provider (RS) for the first time, I'm
>>>>>>>>> offered the opportunity to identify my persona as: email, sign-in with
>>>>>>>>> Google, Facebook, or Apple. I know there are people who try to create
>>>>>>>>> one-off email addresses but that is mostly a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, along come FIDO2 and DID wallets to the rescue. Now, in
>>>>>>>>> theory, I have a way to start out my RS relationship pseudonymously.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I want my resource to be discovered or shared I will post
>>>>>>>>> that RS URL including my pseudonym. If I then want to introduce a
>>>>>>>>> mediator in front of my AS or messaging service endpoint, I have that
>>>>>>>>> option. If I want to keep requests away from the mediator, I would publish
>>>>>>>>> an encryption key along with my pseudonym.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Adrian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:55 AM Justin Richer <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2021, at 1:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 01:07:42AM -0400, Adrian Gropper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >> @Alan Karp <[e-mail]> shared a talk about the
>>>>>>>>>> Principle Of Least
>>>>>>>>>> >> Authority (POLA) in a recent comment
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/ietf-wg-gnap/gnap-core-protocol/issues/145#issuecomment-803099693
>>>>>>>>>> >> I recommend it.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> We might expect a protocol with authorization in the title to
>>>>>>>>>> use authority
>>>>>>>>>> >> as a core principle. I advocate for a GNAP design that
>>>>>>>>>> maximizes the power
>>>>>>>>>> >> of the RO, to be seen as a human rights issue when the RO is a
>>>>>>>>>> human. This
>>>>>>>>>> >> causes me to ask how to combine better security with better
>>>>>>>>>> human rights in
>>>>>>>>>> >> GNAP.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Who should have the least authority in the GNAP design?
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> The AS derives authority as a delegate of the RO. If we ask
>>>>>>>>>> the RO to
>>>>>>>>>> >> partition limited authority across dozens of different ASs by
>>>>>>>>>> domain and
>>>>>>>>>> >> function, then we are not using technology to empower the
>>>>>>>>>> individual.
>>>>>>>>>> >> Probably the opposite, as we introduce consent fatigue and
>>>>>>>>>> burden normal
>>>>>>>>>> >> people to partition their lives into non-overlapping domains.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> My experience says we should aim for one AS per persona
>>>>>>>>>> because that maps
>>>>>>>>>> >> into the way we manage our public and private identities. POLA
>>>>>>>>>> would then
>>>>>>>>>> >> teach care in keeping ASs and RSs related to work / public
>>>>>>>>>> separate from
>>>>>>>>>> >> ASs and RSs related to private life so that a policy
>>>>>>>>>> vulnerability in our
>>>>>>>>>> >> delegation to an AS would have the least likelihood of harm.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Thinking about how least authority/least privilege would apply
>>>>>>>>>> to GNAP
>>>>>>>>>> > seems like a useful exercise.  I do want to point out some
>>>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>>>> > pitfalls with one-AS-per-persona that we can also be aware of.
>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>> > one-AS-per-persona becomes one-persona-per-AS as well, then the
>>>>>>>>>> AS's
>>>>>>>>>> > identity in effect also serves as a persona identity and there
>>>>>>>>>> are privacy
>>>>>>>>>> > considerations to that.  If, on the other hand, the
>>>>>>>>>> > multiple-personas-per-AS (presumably corresponding to multiple
>>>>>>>>>> humans)
>>>>>>>>>> > route is taken, we should consider whether that would lead to
>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>> > (e.g., market) forces driving consolidation to just a handful of
>>>>>>>>>> > super-popular AS services.  That topic is a current matter of
>>>>>>>>>> concern to
>>>>>>>>>> > some IETF participants.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ben, big +1 to this. This is something that we discussed ages
>>>>>>>>>> ago in the UMA working group, and it’s one of the biggest problems with the
>>>>>>>>>> personal AS (and personal data store) model. This kind of thing makes
>>>>>>>>>> RS-first trust models really difficult in practice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a strawman, let’s say that I’ve got software that wants to
>>>>>>>>>> access my medical information. It calls an RS and requests access, but it
>>>>>>>>>> hasn’t been granted anything yet. Now I as the RO have set up the RS so
>>>>>>>>>> that it talks to my personal AS, that only I use. In addition to the RS
>>>>>>>>>> having to be able to figure out which medical records are being requested
>>>>>>>>>> from the context of the unauthenticated request (which means it needs
>>>>>>>>>> identifiers in the URL or something similar for the RS to be able to tell,
>>>>>>>>>> assuming that it protects data for more than one person). So this client
>>>>>>>>>> software doesn’t know who I am and doesn’t know my medical record
>>>>>>>>>> information, makes a completely unauthorized request to the RS, and the RS
>>>>>>>>>> says “Go to Justin’s personal AS to get a token”. The client can now make a
>>>>>>>>>> direct correlation between the data that’s being protected at the RS and
>>>>>>>>>> the person running the AS that protects it. Importantly, this client makes
>>>>>>>>>> this call with no prior relationship to the RS and no really auditable way
>>>>>>>>>> to track it down after the fact. This is a design feature in the good case,
>>>>>>>>>> and terrifying in the bad case.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the RS instead says “welcome to Medicine Doctor RS, please
>>>>>>>>>> talk to the Medicine Doctor AS to get access”, we haven’t exposed anything
>>>>>>>>>> at all. And from the perspective of both the patient and the RS, this is
>>>>>>>>>> more privacy-preserving, and it’s really the least surprising option. Once
>>>>>>>>>> the client gets to the AS, it can start a negotiation of figuring out who
>>>>>>>>>> the RO is for the information being accessed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On top of this, the usability expectations of people managing
>>>>>>>>>> their own AS, or set of AS’s for multiple personas to keep things separate,
>>>>>>>>>> is a huge burden. Even in the tech community, I know people who can’t
>>>>>>>>>> reliably manage more than one email address for different purposes. I
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn’t expect my partner to do that — they have trouble enough balancing
>>>>>>>>>> all the logins and sessions required for different kids remote schooling, I
>>>>>>>>>> couldn’t imagine them having to understand all the requirements for
>>>>>>>>>> managing multiple authorization servers and associated policies. I also
>>>>>>>>>> don’t expect any person to “manage keys” — I’ve been on the internet for
>>>>>>>>>> decades and I can barely keep tabs on my GPG keys, and only use them when I
>>>>>>>>>> am forced to. This is exactly the kind of “market pressure” that I think
>>>>>>>>>> Ben mentions above, people will just want to outsource that to someone
>>>>>>>>>> else, and the reality will be a few popular providers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In which case, we could end up doing a ton of work to allow an RS
>>>>>>>>>> choice only to end up with a world where the RS ends up making a limited
>>>>>>>>>> choice anyway. We see how that plays out with OpenID Connect — RP’s could
>>>>>>>>>> allow arbitrary IdPs but they choose Google because it works and that’s
>>>>>>>>>> where the users are. (And that’s not to say anything of the proprietary
>>>>>>>>>> OIDC-like protocols, but that’s another discussion).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For further reading on these topics, I recommend both “Why Johnny
>>>>>>>>>> Can’t Encrypt” and “Why CSCW Systems Fail”.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So what does this have to do with GNAP? I think we can be
>>>>>>>>>> clear-eyed on what kinds of expectations we have for the participants. If
>>>>>>>>>> we expect users (RO’s) to have to set up the AS-RS relationship, or expect
>>>>>>>>>> them to carry their AS, or manage their personal keys — I think we’ve lost
>>>>>>>>>> the battle for relevance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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