Re: [GNAP] Terminology
Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> Tue, 11 August 2020 05:52 UTC
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References: <c5f40413-93b8-2e8c-0a3e-14a07cd27ad0@free.fr> <ECF217AE-1D67-4EAE-AE51-531F6EE6E222@mit.edu> <583aedda-ae41-1f3e-6623-671f2197614c@free.fr> <20200804185313.GT92412@kduck.mit.edu> <CAJot-L2hykst2vFxcwLn_auDMMaw7psVwsKFHKhQp9DA49ydWg@mail.gmail.com> <A4DC7B4E-FD34-454F-9396-B971CF5D57A4@mit.edu> <CAD9ie-tKEp+PV3F4p84Zbu7Kd1dQutawnzHybt8cmg-XniLYLQ@mail.gmail.com> <401b5e1e-7e6a-87c7-393b-51aaeed5fe0c@free.fr> <CAM8feuQpekZMpbMLSJG3ALvWKEHkR6jBHgeGwQGSzQtVucUQ8w@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-v75OPo45zNj6=2555qEDfQCOqNcF0N3rRD5HTw2b+sRA@mail.gmail.com> <00EFDCE5-513D-449A-A1B6-BE1905E3D8A3@mit.edu> <CAD9ie-vzdoWVRq+QCf+KK+__JGaYc-q2nU8Yhd7zK-0CtJNLDw@mail.gmail.com> <CAOW4vyPtsk=0dGQVNAu8tUjx7Xno1u6_FQcc5Feuy0uZ6c3CsQ@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:52:15 +0200
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To: Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de>
Cc: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [GNAP] Terminology
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Hi Francis, I like your proposal, seems much more intuitive. Fabien Le mar. 11 août 2020 à 04:17, Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de> a écrit : > Hello Denis, Justin, Dick, Fabien, > > In this post ( > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/IaSLC_72_KimjOBJqdmQY-JOGNw/) > i suggested we use the word "Orchestrator" to designate the piece of > software that orchestrate interaction between "Requestor" (a.k.a. User), AS > and RS to obtain the protected resource. > > We are turning around the same topic. As soon as we go beyond the original > oAuth protocol, the word 'Client' becomes confusing. > > In the same response, I suggest we talk about "roles" and not "entities". > > Best regards. > /Francis > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:36 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I still think that client was the right name in OAuth 2, as the client >> wanted to do a client-server interaction, so the client used OAuth 2 to get >> an access token to interact with the "server". >> >> I do agree that it is not the best term in GNAP. Primarily because GNAP >> is a combination of the client from OAuth 2, and the relying party from >> OIDC. >> >> /Dick >> ᐧ >> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 12:50 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote: >> >>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:53 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The term client in OAuth came from the computer science definition of >>> client-server interaction. >>> >>> >>> This, I would argue, is exactly why it’s a bad label for something >>> that’s distinctly more specific in this context, and I would love to see >>> GNAP adopt a more specific label for the role that we traditionally called >>> “client” in OAuth. >>> >>> — Justin >>> >>> >>> The client is getting an access token so it can call a server, >>> specifically, a resource server (to differentiate it from the authorization >>> server). >>> >>> The confusion in my experience usually stems from people working with >>> software that is acting in multiple roles. IE, the software that is acting >>> as a client in once context, is also acting as an RS in other contexts, or >>> even acting as an AS. The other confusion is that people view clients as >>> being the software the user is using -- although it may not be acting as a >>> client in the oauth context. >>> >>> >>> >>> ᐧ >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:49 AM Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> To me, client has always been a strange word in the context of OAuth, >>>> as it has a meaning well defined both in everyday life (this client is a >>>> good customer) and in computer science (client-server interaction). Thus I >>>> always have to make the mental translation to the OAuth world before any >>>> discussion... And any teaching experience shows that it does make the >>>> concepts hard to grasp for a majority of (clever) people. >>>> >>>> As for the RO, previous discussions suggested Resource >>>> Controller (RC) also, which may be a bit more specific than manager. >>>> >>>> Fabien >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 1:00 PM Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Justin and Dick, >>>>> >>>>> [Was: "Revisiting the photo sharing example (a driving use case for >>>>> the creation of OAuth)"] >>>>> >>>>> So let us attempt to define new terms: >>>>> >>>>> *initiating application (IA)*: application by means of which a user >>>>> initiates interactions with RS(s) and AS(s) >>>>> >>>>> In the same way, we should get rid of the term Resource Owner (RO), >>>>> which is currently defined as: >>>>> >>>>> Resource Owner (RO): entity capable of granting access to a protected >>>>> resource >>>>> >>>>> I propose to replace it with Resource Manager (RM): >>>>> >>>>> *Resource Manager (RM)* : application or user that manages an access >>>>> decision function of a Resource Server >>>>> >>>>> Denis >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Justin. Redefining well used terms will lead to >>>>> significant confusion. If we have a different role than what we have had >>>>> in the past, then that role should have a name not being used already in >>>>> OAuth or OIDC. >>>>> >>>>> Given what we have learned, and my own experience explaining what a >>>>> Client is, and is not, improving the definition for Client could prove >>>>> useful. I am not suggesting the term be redefined, but clarified. >>>>> >>>>> For example, clarifying that a Client is a role an entity plays in the >>>>> protocol, and that the same entity may play other roles at other times, or >>>>> some other language to help differentiate between "role" and "entity". >>>>> >>>>> /Dick >>>>> ᐧ >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 8:20 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I’m in favor of coming up with a new term that’s a better fit, but >>>>>> I’m not really in favor of taking an existing term and applying a >>>>>> completely new definition to it. In other words, I would sooner stop using >>>>>> “client” and come up with a new, more specific and accurate term for the >>>>>> role than to define “client” as meaning something completely different. We >>>>>> did this in going from OAuth 1 to OAuth 2 already, moving from the >>>>>> even-more-confusing “consumer” to “client”, but OAuth 2 doesn’t use the >>>>>> term “consumer” at all, nor does it use “server” on its own but instead >>>>>> always qualifies it with “Authorization Server” and “Resource Server”. >>>>>> >>>>>> GNAP can do something similar, in my opinion. But what we can’t do is >>>>>> ignore the fact that GNAP is going to be coming up in a world that is >>>>>> already permeated by OAuth 2 and its terminology. We don’t have a blank >>>>>> slate to work with, but neither are we bound to use the same terms and >>>>>> constructs as before. It’s going to be a delicate balance! >>>>>> >>>>>> — Justin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Warren Parad <wparad@rhosys.ch> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that is fundamentally part of the question: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We are clear that we are producing a protocol that is >>>>>>> conceptually (if not more strongly) related to OAuth 2.0, and >>>>>>> reusing terms >>>>>>> from OAuth 2.0 but with different definitions may lead to unnecessary >>>>>>> confusion >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If we say that this document assumes OAuth2.0 terminology, then we >>>>>> should not change the meanings of any definition. If we are saying this >>>>>> supersedes or replaces what OAuth 2.0 creates, then we should pick the best >>>>>> word for the job and ignore conflicting meanings from OAuth 2.0. I have a >>>>>> lot of first hand experience of industries "ruining words", and attempting >>>>>> to side-step the problem rather than redefining the word just confuses >>>>>> everyone as everyone forgets the original meaning as new documents come >>>>>> out, but the confusion with the use of a non-obvious word continues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Food for thought. >>>>>> - Warren >>>>>> >>>>>> Warren Parad >>>>>> Founder, CTO >>>>>> Secure your user data and complete your authorization architecture. >>>>>> Implement Authress <https://bit.ly/37SSO1p>. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:53 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Denis, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 11:31:34AM +0200, Denis wrote: >>>>>>> > Hi Justin, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Since you replied in parallel, I will make a response similar to >>>>>>> the one >>>>>>> > I sent to Dick. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > Hi Denis, >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > I think there’s still a problem with the terminology in use >>>>>>> here. What >>>>>>> > > you describe as RS2, which might in fact be an RS unto itself, >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> > > “Client” in OAuth parlance because it is /a client of RS1/. What >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> > > call a “client” has no analogue in the OAuth world, but it is >>>>>>> not at >>>>>>> > > all the same as an OAuth client. I appreciate your mapping of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > > entities below, but it makes it difficult to hold a discussion >>>>>>> if we >>>>>>> > > aren’t using the same terms. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > The good news is that this isn’t OAuth, and as a new WG we can >>>>>>> define >>>>>>> > > our own terms. The bad news is that this is really hard to do. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > In GNAP, we shouldn’t just re-use existing terms with new >>>>>>> definitions, >>>>>>> > > but we’ve got a chance to be more precise with how we define >>>>>>> things. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the ISO context, each document must define its own terminology. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> > boiler plate for RFCs does not mandate a terminology or >>>>>>> definitions section >>>>>>> > but does not prevent it either. The vocabulary is limited and as >>>>>>> long as >>>>>>> > we clearly define what our terms are meaning, we can re-use a term >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> > used in another RFC. This is also the ISO approach. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just because we can do something does not necessarily mean that it >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> good idea to do so. We are clear that we are producing a protocol >>>>>>> that is >>>>>>> conceptually (if not more strongly) related to OAuth 2.0, and >>>>>>> reusing terms >>>>>>> from OAuth 2.0 but with different definitions may lead to unnecessary >>>>>>> confusion. If I understand correctly, a similar reasoning prompted >>>>>>> Dick to >>>>>>> use the term "GS" in XAuth, picking a name that was not already used >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> OAuth 2.0. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Ben >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Txauth mailing list >>>>>>> Txauth@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Txauth mailing list >>>>>> Txauth@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> TXAuth mailing list >>>>>> TXAuth@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> TXAuth mailing list >>>>> TXAuth@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >> TXAuth mailing list >> TXAuth@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >> > > > -- > Francis Pouatcha > Co-Founder and Technical Lead > adorsys GmbH & Co. KG > https://adorsys-platform.de/solutions/ >
- [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example (a … Denis
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Dick Hardt
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Justin Richer
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Tom Jones
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Denis
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Denis
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Justin Richer
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Dick Hardt
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Dick Hardt
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing example… Warren Parad
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Revisiting the photo sharing example (… Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Revisiting the photo sharing example (… Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- [GNAP] Terminology Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dave Tonge
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Mike Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dave Tonge
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Denis
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Dave Tonge
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Denis
- [GNAP] User consent Denis
- [GNAP] User consent Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology - into Github Issues Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology - into Github Issues Denis
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Denis
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Denis
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology - into Github Issues Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology - into Github Issues Warren Parad
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Terminology Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] User consent Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] [Txauth] Revisiting the photo sharing … Fabien Imbault