Re: [GNAP] Terminology

Denis <> Fri, 14 August 2020 10:02 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E283A0AE5 for <>; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:02:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.633
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZlGRw0_UBcN for <>; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:02:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD6513A0ADA for <>; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:02:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [] ([]) by mwinf5d41 with ME id FN2d230022bcEcA03N2d9z; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:02:39 +0200
X-ME-Helo: []
X-ME-Auth: ZGVuaXMucGlua2FzQG9yYW5nZS5mcg==
X-ME-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:02:39 +0200
To: Fabien Imbault <>
Cc: Dave Tonge <>, Justin Richer <>, Dick Hardt <>, Mike Jones <>, Tom Jones <>, Francis Pouatcha <>, Benjamin Kaduk <>, "" <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: Denis <>
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:02:35 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FAB95DA71BC7560FE17AD0F6"
Content-Language: en-GB
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [GNAP] Terminology
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:02:45 -0000

Hi Fabien,

Thank you for your inputs, a ball is finally rolling.

> An attempt.

    I would add upfront: User =  human person

> /<Client> = application that requests access to Resource Servers (RS) 
> through a Grant Server (GS). /
> Examples: a web server, a browser-based app, a mobile app, an IoT device.

    A few explanations: "through" does not sound appropriate since it
    could be interpreted as the GS being necessarilly placed between the
    Client and the RS.
                                           In addition, more than one GS
    may be necessary.

    My proposal: /<Client> = application that requests access to
    Resource Servers (RS) ///on behalf of a User /by using one or more
    Grant Servers (GS) /
    /Examples: a web server, a browser-based app, a mobile app./

> /GS = computing service that manages the grant lifecycle to a <Client> 
> on behalf of a Resource Controler (RC)./
> Note : for privacy reasons, the GS may be issuing grants without 
> knowledge of which resources are requested.

    I dislike "/on behalf of a Resource Controler (RC)/". The GS may be
    fully ignorant of the existence of the RSs and hence of the RCs.
    In addition, "/grant life cycle/" is undefined./

    My proposal: //GS = /server issuing access tokens to a Client after
    successfully authenticating the User/
    /Note 1: for privacy reasons, the GS may be issuing access tokens
    without the knowledge of which resources are requested.
    Note 2: a GS is able to disclose to a User the User attributes that
    it manages.

> /RS = computing service that grants access only if its Resource 
> Controler (RC) consents./
> Note : the consent may involve a human interaction or may be automated 
> based on access control policies.

    I dislike "/its Resource Controler (RC) consents" /because it may
    let think that a human person always needs to consent.

    My proposal: /R//S = server hosting protected resources, capable of
    accepting and responding to protected resource requests
                                       when access tokens are being used/

> /RC = entity which is controlling the access to a protected resource. /
> Note : a RC may be manually operated by a human or delegated to a 
> machine, partially or completely.

    A RC is not an entity but a function. I would also place the machine
    case first.

    My proposal: /RC = function tightly coupled with a RS which controls
    the accesses to a protected resource
    /                        Note : the function may be operated either
    by a machine or by a human person or by some combination of both.

> /Consent = the process of asking a RC to accept or decline based on a 
> grant request presentation, resulting in either a “yes” or “no” 
> consent decision./

    I would instead speak of the "User Consent". The User Consent is a
    set of choices among a proposed set of choices. It is not simply a
    "yes" or "no" consent decision.

    My proposal: /User Consent = ability for a User, after being
    informed, of choosing to release or not to a RS some attributes
    contained in one or more access tokens/


> Fabien
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:55 PM Denis < 
> <>> wrote:
>     Fabien,
>     IMHO, nothing is wrong with keeping "Client" since it has a wide
>     spread usage
>     ... but only as long as we can agree on a short and a clear
>     definition for it.
>     I can provide the beginning of such a definition: " application ..."
>     If someone could go a little bit further, this would help. :-)
>     A similar argumentation for GS. It could be used but only as long
>     as we can agree on a short and a clear definition for it.
>     Any proposal ?
>     Denis
>>     Hi,
>>     Nothing inherently wrong with Client/AS, which has worked for
>>     years in the context of OAuth2. The question is to know whether
>>     we can build the new protocol with the same concepts and deal
>>     with their known limitations, or if we're better off with more
>>     adapted concepts less prone to misunderstandings.
>>     Verb vs Noun:
>>     Problem is that the grant (noun) can only be understood if there
>>     is a grant(verb), i.e. some action that grants something.
>>     The grant (noun) definition directly derives from the verb :
>>     "something granted ..."
>>     I personally have no issue even with the fairly convoluted "The
>>     Grant Server issues a grant to the Grant Client representing
>>     access that has been granted" (except perhaps from the word
>>     Client, but that's a different issue).
>>     By the way, grant is nothing new, it's used extensively in OAuth2
>>     as "grant types" (whatever that means).
>>     Dick summarized well the reasons why he uses GS instead of AS :
>>     1) "grant" is in the working group name (a weaker reason, but
>>     still has been approved). Question: would our reasoning if the
>>     protocol ended up being called OAuth3?
>>     2) grant = larger in scope than AS (not only authorization), as
>>     it at least includes idclaims + other use cases like payment (?)
>>     - no consensus, see difference in appreciation between Justin and
>>     Dick
>>     As for "Client", if most people think it is problematic, it seems
>>     a good reason to change if we find a better alternative.
>>     Quoting Dick again: "The confusion in my experience usually stems
>>     from people working with software that is acting in
>>     multiple roles. IE, the software that is acting as a client in
>>     once context, is also acting as an RS in other contexts, or even
>>     acting as an AS. The other confusion is that people view
>>     clients as being the software the user is using -- although it
>>     may not be acting as a client in the oauth context." and later "I
>>     do agree that it is not the best term in GNAP. Primarily because
>>     GNAP is a combination of the client from OAuth 2, and the relying
>>     party from OIDC."
>>     So far there's no consensus however, recent tries: Initiating
>>     Application (Denis), Orchestrator (Francis).
>>     Cheers
>>     Fabien
>>     On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 2:59 PM Dave Tonge
>>     < <>> wrote:
>>         I would be against using "grant" as both a verb and a noun
>>         and stick purely with one or the other. (In the charter the
>>         only use of "grant" is in the verb: "granted").
>>         Using it as both a verb and a noun will be confusing and less
>>         accessible.
>>         I think it will be confusing to say "The Grant Server issues
>>         a grant to the Grant Client representing access that has been
>>         granted"
>>         Whether the access takes place via a token being returned and
>>         used at a resource server, or "claims" that are directly
>>         returned from the "Grant Server" I think should be largely
>>         irrelevant when it comes to the naming of the roles.
>>         In almost all use cases that I have seen the "Grant Server"
>>         is making a policy based decision "to grant" access to
>>         requested resource(s). To me, that is the fundamental
>>         operation happening. I think nearly all use cases can be
>>         applied to that, e.g. the GS grants access to
>>          - identity attributes for the end user
>>          - verify an identity attribute (e.g. that user is over 18)
>>          - all users photos at resource server X
>>          - a single photo with id 12345 at resource server Y
>>          - resource of type X at any resource server that trusts the
>>         Grant Server
>>          - call a payment API with specific properties (e.g. amount < 5)
>>          - call a file storage API
>>          - call a "contract signing" API with specific properties
>>         (e.g. contract hash of xxx,)
>>         While "client" is problematic, it does now have wide spread
>>         usage, so perhaps we are stuck with it.
>>         However I agree with Justin and think "Grant Client" makes
>>         things more confusing.
>>         What is wrong with keeping "Client" and "Authorization Server"?
>>         Dave
>>         Moneyhub Enterprise is a trading style of Moneyhub Financial
>>         Technology Limited which is authorised and regulated by the
>>         Financial Conduct Authority ("FCA"). Moneyhub Financial
>>         Technology is entered on the Financial Services Register (FRN
>>         809360) at Moneyhub Financial
>>         Technology is registered in England & Wales, company
>>         registration number 06909772. Moneyhub Financial Technology
>>         Limited 2020 © Moneyhub Enterprise, Regus Building, Temple
>>         Quay, 1 Friary, Bristol, BS1 6EA.
>>         DISCLAIMER: This email (including any attachments) is subject
>>         to copyright, and the information in it is confidential. Use
>>         of this email or of any information in it other than by the
>>         addressee is unauthorised and unlawful. Whilst reasonable
>>         efforts are made to ensure that any attachments are
>>         virus-free, it is the recipient's sole responsibility to scan
>>         all attachments for viruses. All calls and emails to and from
>>         this company may be monitored and recorded for legitimate
>>         purposes relating to this company's business. Any opinions
>>         expressed in this email (or in any attachments) are those of
>>         the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of
>>         Moneyhub Financial Technology Limited or of any other group
>>         company.