Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-00
Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> Tue, 24 November 2020 04:56 UTC
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From: Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 05:55:48 +0100
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To: Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de>
Cc: GNAP Mailing List <txauth@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones@gmail.com>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-00
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Hi Francis, I've thought a bit more to what you said. I think I'll give it a try as a separate experiment (in code, not in theory). Not that I would expect it to be included in GNAP, but I kind of like the idea :-) The direct impact for GNAP would be to think about multiple ASs. Will let you know. Fabien Le mer. 18 nov. 2020 à 13:06, Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de> a écrit : > It would be nice if the protocol was designed at many layers of > abstraction. > > > - The first layer shall design abstract protocol flows, without > specification of the mode and mechanism of interaction. > - The second layer can instantiate the first layer for dedicated > interaction. Here we can talk http, we can define interactions that presume > server based token generation, we can define interaction that run on user > device based token generation. > > This is also the fundament of the structure I proposed for the spec ( > https://github.com/ietf-wg-gnap/gnap-core-protocol/issues/30). > > /Francis > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2020 6:35 AM > *To:* Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de> > *Cc:* txauth@ietf.org <txauth@ietf.org>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>; > Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones@gmail.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>; > Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-00 > > Would make sense, but not so easy as we rely heavily on HTTP. Hence the > discussion about deep links and so on. > > An alternative might be provided by wasm/wasi (running a local sandbox on > your phone, for your own AS), but it's really early stage. This also poses > another question that Denis has put forward, i.e. how do we handle the > multiple AS scenario (likely to occur then). > > Fabien > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:16 PM Francis Pouatcha <fpo@adorsys.de> wrote: > > We are drifting away from the original problem space. > > - My original mention was about the "POST" request, that subsumes that > the "AS" is a "Server". Designing a new protocol, we cannot afford this > limitation. > - I just mentioned SIOP to show a known and closed example? Let us not > focus on the device local discovery scheme (like openid:) for now. > - As capability of holding private keys on user device evolves, > server-based issuing of token will be fading out giving way to device local > generation of token. > > While designing GNAP, let us assume the AS-Role can be exercised on a user > device and design the protocol to honor that. > > Best regards, > /Francis > ------------------------------ > *From:* TXAuth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt < > dick.hardt@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2020 1:28 PM > *To:* Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones@gmail.com> > *Cc:* Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>; > GNAP Mailing List <txauth@ietf.org>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-00 > > Got it. > > So web apps invoke a openid: deep link and hope there is an app to handle > the openid: scheme? ... and that it is the user's wallet rather than some > malware that has registered openid: on the mobile device? > > A native app can attempt to open a deep link associated with an app, and > will fail if the app is not there. If the app is there, it will be opened, > so this can't be used to silently test if an app is present, but it does > allow a native app to provide an alternative experience if an app is not > present. I don't think this works with custom schemes ... and I don't know > how it could work from a web app on the phone with the current Safari APIs. > > Apple warns against using custom schemes [1] ... but perhaps they can be > convinced to make openid: a managed scheme similar to mailto:, tel:, > sms:, facetime: ? > > [1] > https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing_apps_and_websites_to_link_to_your_content/defining_a_custom_url_scheme_for_your_app > > > ᐧ > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:06 AM Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones@gmail.com> > wrote: > > You are - that is not standard which is opeind:// > This is the one step that still needs to be optimized for SIOP to have > good UX. > Peace ..tom > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:59 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Tom > > I watched your video (I watched at 2X speed) > > Looks like the employment website app that is using localhost:8765 to > communicate with the wallet. Am I correct? > > /Dick > ᐧ > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:46 AM Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Well, here's a demo. Note that in this case the AS is not online all of > the time, so it is really implicit flow and the OIDC id-token comes from > the siop device directly. > (whether this is front-channel or back channel is no longer an interesting > question.) > Now if an always-on AS is required, that is possible, but probably beyond > the scope of this effort and would require something like an > agent-in-the-sky (with diamonds). > here is the link to the 9 min video https://youtu.be/Tq4hw7X5SW0 > <https://urldefense.us/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_Tq4hw7X5SW0&d=DwMFaQ&c=2plI3hXH8ww3j2g8pV19QHIf4SmK_I-Eol_p9P0CttE&r=D5lnfoa2MVZWELqVbbz71ooelbP7rVGCjGDSBNvUpYQ&m=ixsudGSr_dhG-SLiatb4Sz9FWslmywnYyZAOLgZxhl8&s=jdLLy0G1JTQCAOBZ6PeUgI0kiCtVJXrru0VToYWlNZ8&e=> > Peace ..tom > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:20 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote: > > Ultimately, in most situations like these in the real world, the hurdle > isn’t technical compatibility so much as it is trust compatibility. The RP > (client) needs to have some incentive to trust the assertions and identity > information that’s coming from the AS. The same is true for an RS trusting > tokens from the AS. The hard question is less “how” to do that (which SSI > answers), but more “why” to do that (which SSI doesn’t answer very well, > because it’s a hard question). > > Still: it’s definitely a question about how to support this “AS on device” > element. We’ve got the start of it more than OAuth2/OIDC have by allowing > the bootstrap of the process from a starting call: the interaction and > continuation URIs handed back by the AS don’t need to be the same URIs that > the client starts with, so just like SIOP the process can start in HTTP and > potentially move to other communication channels. A major difference is > that we aren’t dependent on the assumption that the user will always be in > a browser at some stage, and so the whole raft of front-channel messages > that SIOP relies on doesn’t fly. That said, we’ve got an opportunity to > more explicitly open up alternative communication channels here, and that’s > something I’d like to see engineered, even if it’s an extension. I’d love > to see a concrete proposal as to how that would work over specific > protocols, starting with what we’ve got today. > > — Justin > > On Nov 17, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi Denis, hi Francis, > > At some point integration with SSI (on the authentication side) will > probably occur, including amongst other possibilities SIOP (since they work > with OpenID a part of the work will probably be made easier). > > That being said, Denis is right. It's not an AS. Technically it's entirely > possible to rely on a decentralized wallet (for instance on your phone) and > a centralized AS. I know of a few studies on how to decentralize the AS > itself (for instance > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardjono-oauth-decentralized-02). > Maybe it exists, but I'm still looking for real scenarios (or even > architectures) where an AS is deployed directly on a phone, and under the > sole authority of the RO, while being compatible with the rest of the > world. > > Cheers, > Fabien > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 5:45 PM Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr> wrote: > > Hello Francis, > > See two comments in line. > > > B) Current Document > > Roles description shall not hold any assumption on the physical structure > of the party fulfilling the roles. > [FI] not sure what you mean > > [FP] for example, we assume the AS is a server! In most SSI based use > cases, the AS will be running on the user device. See SIOP ( > https://identity.foundation/did-siop/). > > I browsed through the two drafts, i.e. : > > - Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) v1.0 Core architecture, data model, > and representations W3C Working Draft 08 November 2020 > - Self-Issued OpenID Connect Provider DID Profile v0.1. DIF Working > Group Draft > > At no place within these two documents, it is possible to imagine that > "the AS will be running on the user device". > > From section 3 of the DIF Working Group Draft: > > "Unlike the OIDC Authorization Code Flow as per [OIDC.Core], the > SIOP will not return an access token to the RP". > > An Identity Wallet is not an AS. > > > Roles: > -> grant endpoint of the AS: Why is this a post request? This eliminates > the chance of having user device hosted AS (no server). > [FI] what would you propose instead? > Would also be interested to understand better the deployment model when > there is no server. That's something that was discussed several times but > I'm still missing the underlying architecture and use case. > > [FP] See above (SIOP). There will be a lot of identity wallets operated > on end user device. > > See the above comment. Please, do not confuse an Identity Wallet with an > Authentication Server (AS). > > Denis > > > -> Resource Owner (RO) : Authorizes the request? Does it authorize the > request or the access to a resource? > [FI] yes, we should make the wording clearer > > Missing Section Interactions: > --> This section shall introduce the notion of interaction before we start > listing interaction types. > [FI] yes > > Interaction Types: > --> I prefer a classification with Redirect, Decoupled and Embedded is. In > the draft, we have one redirect and 2 decouple interactions and nothing > else. > [FI] this should be handled as a specific discussion item. As a reminder, > how would you define embedded? > > In practice there's at least these modes: > - redirect and redirect back > - redirect to different browser or device > - user code > - CIBA > > [FP] This classification is limited. > > - Redirect: same device, same or different user agents (browser, > mobile app, desktop app, ...) > - Decoupled: different devices > - Embedded : RC carries RO authorization to AS > > > > Resource Access Request vs. Resource Request > --> Both are mixed up. No clarification of the context of each section. > [FI] could you clarify what you'd expect. Btw on this topic, there's a > more general discussion on whether we should make a distinction or not. > > [FP]: Here: > > - Resource Access Request: Requesting Access to a resource. Response > is an access token (or any type of grant) > - Resource Request: Request the resource. Response is the resource (or > a corresponding execution) > > > Token Content Negotiation > --> Not expressed as such. This is central to GNAP and not represented > enough in the document. > [FI] right. This should be a specific discussion item. > > Requesting "User" Information > we identify two types of users: RQ and RO. It will be better not to refer > to a user in this draft, but either to a RQ or an RO. > [FI] yes that would avoid potential misunderstandings. Although in the > end, people will translate RQ into user or end-user most of the time. Cf in > definition, currently we have Requesting Party (RQ, aka "user") > > > Interaction Again > -> For each interaction type, we will have to describe the protocol flow > and the nature and behavior of involved Roles (Parties), Elements, Requests. > [FI] yes > > > [FP] Will these and into tickets? > > Best regards. > /Francis > > > > -- > TXAuth mailing list > TXAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > -- > TXAuth mailing list > TXAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > > -- > TXAuth mailing list > TXAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > -- > TXAuth mailing list > TXAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > >
- [GNAP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-… internet-drafts
- Re: [GNAP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-gnap-core-proto… Justin Richer
- [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protocol-00 Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Denis
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Dick Hardt
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Adrian Gropper
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Francis Pouatcha
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Justin Richer
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Tom Jones
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Adrian Gropper
- Re: [GNAP] Review of draft-ietf-gnap-core-protoco… Fabien Imbault