Re: [Udp35] Snowden and SPUD

Jana Iyengar <> Mon, 20 July 2015 15:14 UTC

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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:14:09 +0200
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From: Jana Iyengar <>
To: Michael Welzl <>
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Subject: Re: [Udp35] Snowden and SPUD
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A few offhand thoughts:
1. Snowden is not part of the SPUD conversations, so it's easy to be
confused about what the current thinking is. The current thinking is _not_
about simply "leaking" information to middleboxes. The details are
important here -- what information is being transmitted is, as a first
approximation, the same stuff that currently middelboxes get out of TCP and
ICMP (if those worked as intended). If there's more info, it's going to be
debated heavily for privacy concerns.
2. Snowden can engage in IETF SPUD meetings, and I'm sure he'd be welcome
to them.
3. It's all about rough consensus, not an individual's opinion.

4. Finally, and I have been concerned about this for a while now: I've
always said that the SPUD prototype should be distinct in name from the
SPUD effort. The prototype is the face of the effort and represents current
thinking for anyone glancing at this stuff, and it seems scary and
dangerous. We'd all be concerned if the SPUD prototype were the actual
protocol deployed, but that's supposedly not going to be the case. Which
begs the question: why spend any time on a protocol that is destined to not
make it? Why not actually figure out a protocol that *might* and then see
how to build it out?

- jana

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Michael Welzl <> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Edward Snowden said yesterday (in the Q&A session following the movie)
> that he thinks SPUD is a bad idea.
> I think what he meant was: "it's a bad idea because it talks to
> middleboxes"; that anything that talks to middleboxes is a problem is
> something I would have trouble agreeing with. If we shouldn't try to talk
> to middleboxes in some way, aren't we stuck making progress regarding this
> ossification?
> I wonder what people think about this, and if others perhaps perceived his
> statement to come from a different angle?
> Cheers,
> Michael
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