Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofrogans' scheme
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Wed, 03 October 2018 17:20 UTC
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References: <5eabdf3a-7fdc-4e53-b69d-daba1aa98073@mozilla.com> <CA+9kkMBC2iOna-QRMr5O0dvAfXmtZYrCAf2h3PO0-YYo-yy3uA@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01688C9FB2C852209DE6533EA3190@CY4PR21MB0168.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <4cc43a14-e0e6-95ca-88a0-5d41b379221c@op3ft.org>
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 10:19:48 -0700
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To: Benjamin PHISTER <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org>
Cc: uri-review@ietf.org, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>, khaled.koubaa@op3ft.org, Jean-Emmanuel RODRIGUEZ <jean-emmanuel.rodriguez@op3ft.org>, Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>, alexis.tamas@op3ft.org
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Subject: Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofrogans' scheme
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Thank you for your comments and the update; I have no further recommendations. regards, Ted Hardie On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 7:23 AM Benjamin PHISTER <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org> wrote: > Hi Dave and Ted, > > Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. > > 1. The encoding method proposed by Ted (and supported by Dave) for > defining URIs is indeed much simpler. > > We will modify the introduction of Section 4. and the method described in > 4.1 accordingly, so that the URI definition doesn't depend on IRIs. > > Concerning the use IRIs, we will modify the text to indicate that it > concerns only end-user applications for which the use of IRIs is allowed. > > 2. About the behavior of Frogans Player > > Ted pointed out that in different parts of the draft, the text is not > clear about whether it covers further implementations of Frogans Player or > only the current implementation. > > The fact that these parts were written using the present tense (e.g. > "Frogans Player always displays the real Frogans address") left open doubts > about future implementations. > > We will modify these parts so as to indicate that they apply to all > implementations. > > 3. Concerning the use of an access page ( > https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/access.html) to refer to > version 1.1 of the IFAP specification. > > Given that the access page lists all versions of the IFAP specification, > Ted suggested we provide a direct link to version 1.1 of the IFAP > specification ( > https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/ifap11-adopted.spec.txt). > > We prefer to keep the reference to the access page for the following > reasons: > > a) The URL of the access page is a permanent URL (The OP3FT will not > modify this URL in the future) > > b) The permanent URL is mentioned in the IFAP specification itself. > > c) This access page contains links to 11 data files referenced by the IFAP > specification (for example > https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/ifap11-adopted.spec.ilt01-character-set.txt > ) > > d) Version 1.1 of the IFAP specification is mentioned in the reference > provided in the draft: > > [IFAP] OP3FT, "International Frogans Address Pattern", > *Version 1.1*, ISBN 978-2-37313-000-3, November 2014, > <https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/access.html> > <https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/access.html>. > > > We have just submitted a new draft > "draft-op3ft-leaptofrogans-uri-scheme-03" reflecting changes discussed in > points 1 and 2 above. See > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-op3ft-leaptofrogans-uri-scheme/ > > Regards, > > Benjamin and Alexis > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> <dthaler@microsoft.com> > *Subject:* [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofrogans' scheme > *Date:* Friday, Sep 14, 2018 8:24 PM CEST > *To:* Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Peter > Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> <stpeter@mozilla.com> > *Cc:* khaled.koubaa@op3ft.org <khaled.koubaa@op3ft.org> > <khaled.koubaa@op3ft.org>, uri-review@ietf.org <uri-review@ietf.org> > <uri-review@ietf.org>, Jean-Emmanuel RODRIGUEZ > <jean-emmanuel.rodriguez@op3ft.org> <jean-emmanuel.rodriguez@op3ft.org>, > Benjamin PHISTER <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org> <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org> > > +1 to this recommendation from Ted: > > Ø I think this could be substantially simpler, by defining these as URLs > where any Frograns > > Ø Network or Frogans Site which uses characters outside the US-ASCII > range encodes them > > Ø with percent encoding when constructing a URL. This might also > simplify the equivalence > > Ø matching algorithm, but that depends a bit on your needs there. > > > > One issue with IRIs is that if they are used directly in web pages, such > that the client gets to do the IRI-to-URI > > conversion, you will get different results since the client might follow > RFC 3987 (e.g., Windows UWP apps do) > > but browsers do not, they tend to follow a conversion process closer to > the iri-bis drafts that never became > > RFCs (e.g., that use the charset of the containing page, rather than > UTF-8). As such, you do not get reliable > > interoperable behavior. > > > > If they always appear in web pages as URIs (not IRIs) such that the author > does the conversion, then you can > > get interoperable behavior. Hence the recommendation. > > > > Dave > > > > *From:* Uri-review <uri-review-bounces@ietf.org> > <uri-review-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Ted Hardie > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 10:23 AM > *To:* Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> <stpeter@mozilla.com> > *Cc:* khaled.koubaa@op3ft.org; uri-review@ietf.org; Jean-Emmanuel > RODRIGUEZ <jean-emmanuel.rodriguez@op3ft.org> > <jean-emmanuel.rodriguez@op3ft.org>; Benjamin PHISTER > <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org> <benjamin.phister@op3ft.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofrogans' scheme > > > > Howdy, > > > > draft-op3ft-leaptofrogans-uri-scheme references the IFAP spec but the > pointer given is to an access page; it would likely be clearer to point to > a specific version, e.g. > https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/ifap10-adopted.spec.txt > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.frogans.org%2Fen%2Fresources%2Fifap%2Fifap10-adopted.spec.txt&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cf2dd94c00ff641f78d7c08d61a66edcb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636725426718904009&sdata=ekn%2BaOZOnxg98DsRAAWbezfXGEmkG6uL4DOfKnWzC3A%3D&reserved=0> > . > > > > I personally found the discussion of the relationship of leaptofrogans to > IRIs somewhat confusing and under-specified. From what I have worked out, > the Frograns networks and Frogans sites are both forbidden by IFAP from > using the percent symbol within their names. This means that any > leaptofrograns URIs will not need to deal with percent-encoding any > existing percent signs. The document goes on to say: > > > > This is because Frogans Player interprets both URIs > > and IRIs based on the 'leaptofrogans' URI scheme. If the U+0025 > > PERCENT SIGN character is found in the string, then the string is > > interpreted as a URI, otherwise it is interpreted as an IRI. > > While it may be useful to know what the Frogans Player currently does, the > specification really has to say what further implementation should do, and > this isn't really clear. Similarly, the Security considerations section > lists mitigations that are specific to a particular piece of software, > rather than more generally. Up-leveling this so it is useful to other > implementations would be good. > > > > I also must confess to a general concern about the use of IRIs. At the > time the IRI documents were written, they were conceived of as a > presentation form useful for interacting with users, but the underlying > assumption was that protocol elements would always be URIs. See this from > Section 3 fo RFC 3987: > > > > However, when the resource > > identifier is used for resource retrieval, it is in many cases > > necessary to determine the associated URI, because currently most > > retrieval mechanisms are only defined for URIs. In this case, IRIs > > can serve as presentation elements for URI protocol elements. > > This document appears to be defining a scheme for use with a resource > retrieval system, but it is doing so with the IRIs as the primary > identifier. It's outside the scope of this discussion to review the > implications of that for IFAP, but I think it is fair to note that IRIs > have not been a resounding success, and that even if the IRI usage were > very completely specified here the chances that libraries outside the > Frograns ecosystem would support it seems small. I infer that in part > because of the special casing in IFAP (e.g. the use of an IDNA-based > repertoire but with the restoration of the asterisk to PVALID within > Frogans strings) , but mostly on the general state of IRI processing. > > > > I think this could be substantially simpler, by defining these as URLs > where any Frograns Network or Frogans Site which uses characters outside > the US-ASCII range encodes them with percent encoding when constructing a > URL. > This might also simplify the equivalence matching algorithm, but that > depends a bit on your needs there. > > > > regards, > > > > Ted Hardie > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> > wrote: > > This message constitutes a request for review of the 'leaptofrogans' URI > scheme, specified here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-op3ft-leaptofrogans-uri-scheme/ > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-op3ft-leaptofrogans-uri-scheme%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cf2dd94c00ff641f78d7c08d61a66edcb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636725426718904009&sdata=tpbuF%2FkvIUoH84SO%2BfAYIZM8o4q3Sum%2FwhgbizbKe2Q%3D&reserved=0> > > Although the completed registration template follows, reading the I-D is > advised. I am the document shepherd and have cc'd the authors. > > ### > > 6. IANA Considerations > > [RFC Editor: Please replace 'xxxx' with assigned RFC number before > publication] > > In accordance with the guidelines and registration procedures for new > URI schemes [RFC7595], this section provides the information needed > to register the 'leaptofrogans' URI scheme. > > Scheme name: 'leaptofrogans' > > Status: permanent > > URI Scheme Syntax: See Section 4 of RFC xxxx. > > URI Scheme semantics: See Section 2 of RFC xxxx. > > Encoding Considerations: See Section 4 of RFC xxxx. > > Applications/protocols that use this scheme name: Frogans Player as > well as any end-user application (such as a Web browser or an E-mail > client) wishing to launch Frogans Player on a given Frogans site. > > Interoperability Considerations: There are no known interoperability > concerns related to use of the 'leaptofrogans' URI scheme. > > Security Considerations: See Section 7 of RFC xxxx. > > Contact: Alexis Tamas mailto:alexis.tamas@op3ft.org > > Change controller: OP3FT mailto:contact-standards@op3ft.org > > References: RFC xxxx. > > ### > > _______________________________________________ > Uri-review mailing list > Uri-review@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/uri-review > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Furi-review&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cf2dd94c00ff641f78d7c08d61a66edcb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636725426718904009&sdata=XmdjS14AgU3n4T4b1ZeC8wYDS2SFBAvKt1un3SEbG7A%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > -- > Benjamin Phister > Head of Technical Specificationsbenjamin.phister@op3ft.org > > OP3FT > 6 square Mozart > 75016 Paris - France > Tel: +33 1 5392 0040https://www.op3ft.org/ > frogans*op3ft > >
- [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofrogan… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofr… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Uri-review] URI review request for 'leaptofr… Ted Hardie