Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document

Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com> Sun, 11 November 2012 08:13 UTC

Return-Path: <masinter@adobe.com>
X-Original-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D2621F8564 for <urn@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:39 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -104.799
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.799, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvqW2Oxr7kZq for <urn@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from exprod6og123.obsmtp.com (exprod6og123.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9BE21F841B for <urn@ietf.org>; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com ([193.104.215.16]) by exprod6ob123.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUJ9eL6iOWoq+N+KMXDdUR1X4+Ul7EyJT@postini.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:37 PST
Received: from inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (inner-relay-4b [10.128.4.237]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id qAB8DYHP025980; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nacas03.corp.adobe.com (nacas03.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.121]) by inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id qAB8DXXL000265; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nacas03.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.121]) with mapi; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:32 -0800
From: Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
To: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>, "urn@ietf.org" <urn@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:13:31 -0800
Thread-Topic: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document
Thread-Index: Ac2y33xh3obkNH0pRBuqyy60JUdYaANAzmbg
Message-ID: <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D1E36EF2DC4@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com>
References: <CAAQiQRe+wCBmKfm7up8XY-4RxLnktZiz+nuanprygGcHAYdqAw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAQiQRe+wCBmKfm7up8XY-4RxLnktZiz+nuanprygGcHAYdqAw@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
acceptlanguage: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document
X-BeenThere: urn@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Revisions to URN RFCs <urn.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/urn>, <mailto:urn-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/urn>
List-Post: <mailto:urn@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:urn-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn>, <mailto:urn-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 08:13:39 -0000

For the record:

Personally, I think that the definition of URNs in 2141 was a mistake, and that santandre's document doesn't go far enough. URNs may have originally intended to be "persistent" and "location independent", but in practice, they intrinsically no more or less persistent or location independent as any other URL, they just happen to start with the "urn:" scheme and have a different generic syntax.

In fact, the only thing that distinguishes urns, in general, is that they form a consistent way of important an externally managed namespace into the URI space.

So I would update 2141 to say that there is a URI scheme "urn:" which is useful when there is a naming authority which takes responsibility for determining the interpretation of names. I might also note that there was some confusion about the role of urns in the past, with the hope that they could provide some "persistence", but the distinction is illusive.  One could have just made up URL schemes (use issn:.... instead of urn:issn:...) but the consistency of knowing the nature of the URI might be useful and avoid proliferation of schemes.

I might apologize for Urn:uuid as a mistake (since there is no authority), and point to a few URI schemes which are not normally thought as being "Internet" (tel:, although that's increasingly resolvable.)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: urn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:urn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Newton
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:35 AM
> To: urn@ietf.org
> Subject: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document
> 
> All,
> 
> We have received a request for this working group to consider an
> alternative to its adopted 2141bis document
> (draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn-03). That alternative is
> draft-saintandre-urnbis-2141bis-00
> (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-urnbis-2141bis/).
> Additionally, some reviewers of our adopted document have expressed
> concern regarding its unnecessary wordiness, especially in comparison
> with the alternative.
> 
> Can participants of this working group please review both documents
> and express opinions and provide comments as to the direction desired
> for this working group in regards to a 2141bis RFC?
> 
> The two documents can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn/
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-urnbis-2141bis/
> 
> We will use the IETF standard of rough consensus to determine the way
> forward.
> 
> Finally, should the working group desire an alternative approach, we
> intend to preserve and publish the historical and non-normative
> information found in our current document. This information is
> valuable and important.
> 
> -andy
> co-chair, URNBIS
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn