Return-Path: X-Original-To: uta@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: uta@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3136131016 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:54:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tnetconsulting.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Quzf_Xp42fRW for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net (tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net [IPv6:2600:3c00:e000:1e9::8849]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4379C131006 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from Contact-TNet-Consulting-Abuse-for-assistance by tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-3) with ESMTPSA id x065sTLO024525 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 23:54:31 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tnetconsulting.net; s=2015; t=1546754071; bh=UtejFQ8pvkcVNVgPx+vrm37g1pudlM/JcvmMnR4pZI0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Disposition: Content-Language:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:From: In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:References:Reply-To: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Sender:Subject:To: User-Agent; b=JQTB0YUmYcOqihdf3L0BkPq/X5cIkjS0so6UUvlDMlKq6FpUfwP+ypTG/0EY+LYNz v8iGCe1SzIegE+VzdzdF3OUyd55AlXBVq7IXHN4GasUrB/GlebZKlS1BdBcS+eM4VO OW2cYmP9JEQpnA806/rieU5Jync2wSFQkZMEa09E= To: uta@ietf.org References: <20190106010828.CC431200C5ED52@ary.qy> <123cecc0-aba2-9530-c0d9-b6437f295140@domblogger.net> <5169b5ea-f092-5a59-b037-b0bb45a9ff7f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <13073cdf-b890-8c27-0347-f8070124085f@domblogger.net> From: Grant Taylor Organization: TNet Consulting Message-ID: <5faea82a-5dc3-9445-0697-ed6a14100d01@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:54:34 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13073cdf-b890-8c27-0347-f8070124085f@domblogger.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms090701020808010509060204" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Uta] SMTP Over TLS on Port 26 - Implicit TLS Proposal X-BeenThere: uta@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: UTA working group mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 05:54:34 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090701020808010509060204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/5/19 10:28 PM, Alice Wonder wrote: > Requiring TLS is pointless if the MX record is not secure. I'm inclined to disagree. - I see value in requiring TLS via STARTTLS=20 even if the MX record wasn't secured. - I say inclined because I can't = articulate the combinations of unmodified / modified MX record in=20 conjunction with all the other possibilities that connections can be=20 tampered with. Be it hijacking / route poisoning / simply filtering out = STARTTLS but not altering anything else. > That's why MTA-STS needs the https component, to secure the MX record=20 > when DNSSEC is not used to do so. >=20 > When DNSSEC is used, DANE then is better at securing the connection so = > MTA-STS is only needed when the server and/or client do not support DAN= E=20 > for SMTP. I disagree. I believe the value of MTA-STS (and HSTS) is the ability to signal that=20 SMTP (HTTP) should -ONLY- be conducted over a secure connection via=20 STARTTLS (TLS). Meaning that SMTP (HTTP) should fail if there isn't a=20 secure connection. The signaling of this fact is what makes MTA-STS so valuable to me. To=20 me, the other aspects of DNSSEC / HTTPS are simply infrastructure=20 necessary to enable delivery of the STS signal. --=20 Grant. . . . unix || die --------------ms090701020808010509060204 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC Cy4wggVAMIIEKKADAgECAhEA01fiRe1k2R6LEQCcImIMYTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBlzEL MAkGA1UEBhMCR0IxGzAZBgNVBAgTEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBxMHU2Fs Zm9yZDEaMBgGA1UEChMRQ09NT0RPIENBIExpbWl0ZWQxPTA7BgNVBAMTNENPTU9ETyBSU0Eg Q2xpZW50IEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBTZWN1cmUgRW1haWwgQ0EwHhcNMTgxMTE4MDAw MDAwWhcNMTkxMTE4MjM1OTU5WjArMSkwJwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhpndGF5bG9yQHRuZXRjb25z dWx0aW5nLm5ldDCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANgOhvncDgc4KAlD +pyhFpw6wCfeERlSOAXowjdTjlOR2zcIgzL0TM9A+hkSv2wsVh6fn6VvHGxKrLemReiGd7fQ 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