Re: [V3] Gateway new to old
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Mon, 30 March 2020 16:56 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:56:34 -0700
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To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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Subject: Re: [V3] Gateway new to old
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On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 6:55 AM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote: > > On the stateless or not … I’ve tried implementing this a few different > ways and I think what we want is a sort of mostly stateless with frequent > sate updates for the parts that are not stateless. Let me explain …. > > First keep in mind there is nothing stateless about the QUIC connection. > Lots of state for crypto. It also seems like it would be a good thing to > allow state for compression. So we are already out of a fully stateless > design before we even start. > Sure, there is lots of state for crypto. But this will typically be handled by a frontend server at the edge of the cloud infra, so we should focus on the RTP-specific parts. > > So when we say RIPT can map to RTP, we really mean RTP + RTCP as that is > needed. In the RTCP we need things like the NTP timestamp. I don’t think we > want to send the full NTP timestamp in ever RIPT packet which probably > rules out a fully stateless design. In WebRTC we took the approach of > putting some data in RTP header extensions and sending them not ever packet > but relatively frequently like every second or every IFrame. I think we > should do the same thing here - we should have some stuff that is sent > frequently enough that if you loose all state until it is resent, it is > not a huge deal. > > This would allow us to do things like send the info to map to NTP time > once a second not in every packet. When you look at what is in a basic RTP > packet, I think it is easy to have that 1:1 mapping of all that data to > something in the RIPT packet but when you start looking at the RTCP data or > some of the RTP header extensions, I think that needs to all map to stuff > in RIPT but probably not something that has to be every RIPT packet. > > Hope that makes sense. That said, I think this still is an extremely > mostly 1:1 and simple 20 lines of code to map between RTP/RTCP and RIPT but > I think we will end up with a bit of state that if frequently refreshed and > is no worse than loosing an IFrame if you loose that state. > I can get on board with this. As you say, there already is some state with RTP/RTCP in terms of the timestamp mapping. The main thing is that this needs to be loss-tolerant (which makes compression somewhat harder) and self-healing, e.g., on a gateway failover. But yeah, it would be nice to not have to send the ~same 12 bytes + 0xBEDE in every packet. (And this is why I think we can reach parity or better with RTP efficiency.) > > > On Mar 27, 2020, at 2:22 PM, Justin Uberti < > juberti=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > It's hard to imagine that we can avoid this if we are in fact going to use > H3 as a substrate. > > I do think it would be useful to ensure the RIPT->RTP gateway can be > stateless and transparent (i.e., you can transform a RIPT frame into a RTP > packet with reasonable fidelity), so that said gateway is all you need in > order for existing services to participate in the RIPT ecosystem. > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 9:32 AM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Westerlund < >> magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> The next media transport issue that was barely discussed in the BOF is the >> legacy (RTP) interoperate question. This is going to come back in the >> scope >> discussion and do needs at least a direction. >> >> >> In WebRTC, we decided to be able to gateway SIP to WebRTC without >> processing media. That turned out to be a major limitation to how WebRTC >> worked. That is good and we have WebRTC but for this, I am storngly of the >> view we should not have that design constraint. >> >> I think it is fine to require a media gateway to go from RIPT to RTP. >> Sure that should be pretty easy - one of the major use cases for this work >> will likely involve building SBCs that talk RIPT on one side and SIP on the >> other. Pretty sure that a bunch of other people are thinking about the >> same. >> >> That sound right to you are or are you arguing for something else ? >> >> >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > > >
- [V3] High level comments on the RIPT charter and … Magnus Westerlund
- [V3] Centralized conference media Cullen Jennings
- Re: [V3] High level comments on the RIPT charter … Cullen Jennings
- [V3] Gateway new to old Cullen Jennings
- Re: [V3] Centralized conference media Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Centralized conference media Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Colin Perkins
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Joerg Ott
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Cullen Jennings
- Re: [V3] High level comments on the RIPT charter … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Cullen Jennings
- Re: [V3] Centralized conference media Cullen Jennings
- Re: [V3] High level comments on the RIPT charter … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [V3] Gateway new to old Justin Uberti