Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Wed, 25 March 2020 19:57 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:56:20 -0700
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To: Justin Uberti <juberti=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com>, "v3@ietf.org" <v3@ietf.org>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript
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On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:52 PM Justin Uberti <juberti= 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:38 PM Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> wrote: > >> Hi Justin, all: >> >> >> >> *From: *V3 <v3-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Uberti <juberti= >> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Date: *Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 12:32 >> *To: *Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> >> *Cc: *Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Jonathan Rosenberg < >> jdrosen@five9.com>, "v3@ietf.org" <v3@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:26 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Replying to Justin, after reading Victor's reply - thank you both for >> replying ... >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 11:55 AM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:28 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> This is interesting ... >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:31 AM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv= >> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> I would like to second Justin's point here about the value of a >> client-server RTP streaming by itself (e-f, though in-band c-d are also >> valuable). There's a lot of value in the world where I can take an HTTP >> URL to some endpoint in the cloud and give it to, say, an IoT camera device >> to use as a realtime media sink, or pass it to an off-the-shelf streaming >> library to show a realtime media source on screen. >> >> >> >> I know most of my own concerns about RIPT media have started out with >> "this won't be as good as RTP for media", but what I've been getting from >> RIPT discussions is, that may not matter as much as I expected. >> >> >> >> For a use case like Victor's, great media quality would be great, but >> good enough media quality may be ... good enough. >> >> >> >> Am I putting words in the mouths of the proponents? >> >> >> >> Some applications may tolerate somewhat lower quality in fallback >> scenarios, but I think we should be aiming for RTP performance with HTTP >> ease of deployment. >> >> >> >> I was actually hoping that wasn't the case, because ISTM that the >> question whether RTP performance over HTTP is possible/likely is going to >> suck up a LOT of the discussion time during the BOF ... >> >> >> >> To Eric's point, "H3 is not widely deployed yet, and so we should think >> about how we want things to look". I think it's entirely possible to >> achieve RTP performance over H3, and hopefully also have a reasonable >> fallback when only H2 is available. >> >> >> >> [Stephan]: many video conferencing technologies (including Vidyo, Zoom), >> have previously, or are currently supporting http-based media transport, >> often for years or even decades. They are almost never enabled by any >> professional deployer, because the resulting QoS is user-perceived as so >> bad that the marketing guys decided that offering no video/voice (and >> instead make people pick of the phone) is better for product reputation >> than offer the degraded QoS. >> >> Do any of you guys have hard numbers what sort of delay h3-based >> transport can achieve on today’s infrastructure? >> > > With H3 we have lots of options; there are lots of details to work through > here but given that the substrate is QUIC there is no theoretical reason > why RTP performance isn't possible. > > Regarding HTTP media transport in existing products (i.e., non-H3), you > are correct that there are indeed limitations and as such providers do what > they can to avoid this option, but it is nowhere near as grim as you make > it out to be. Recall that the first web version of Zoom exclusively used > websockets for transport > <https://webrtchacks.com/zoom-avoids-using-webrtc/>. > I mostly concur with Justin here: I would expect QUIC (which is to say probably H3 + Datagram) to be roughly comparable to RTP [0]. Anything over TCP will obviously be non-awesome, but we already do have some nontrivial fraction of media going over TCP to TURN relays, so it's not like it doesn't work at all, especially in good network conditions. -Ekr [0] There are some open issues with how QUIC congestion control and the media rate control interact, but I imagine they are mostly soluble. > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >
- [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Eric Rescorla
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Anthony Minessale
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Anthony Minessale
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Victor Vasiliev
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Anthony Minessale
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Stephan Wenger
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Eric Rescorla
- Re: [V3] Thoughts on scope for ript Justin Uberti