Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over 1280 MTU tunnels
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 14 October 2010 22:08 UTC
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Message-ID: <4CB77FAA.6090901@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:09:46 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
References: <C8D29306.3EDBD%yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com><E1829B60731D1740BB7A0 626B4FAF0A65C59B79A26@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com><AANLkTimdbMHWRFAJFvahqd s5MySNnQCo2MiUBwDjqDhi@mail.gmail.com><E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65C59BDE53D@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <AANLkTi=LqURq+_q4ftWrbeJH1SO9NbsXs6rQLuv6ejoh@mail.gmail.com> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65C59BDE87F@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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Cc: Softwires <softwires@ietf.org>, "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" <v4tov6transition@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over 1280 MTU tunnels
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Fred, > All of your assumptions are lowest-common-denominator. What else can an operator safely do but make such assumptions? Regards Brian On 2010-10-15 02:08, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Hi Washam, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Washam Fan [mailto:washam.fan@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:50 AM >> To: Templin, Fred L >> Cc: Rémi Després; Softwires; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over >> 1280 MTU tunnels >> >> Hi Fred, >> >> Please see inline. I did have some different assumptions. And those >> assumptions might be wrong. It might be better at this stage we let >> the tunneled IPv6 MTU be 1280 and tunneling IPv4 MTU not less than >> 1308. > > All of your assumptions are lowest-common-denominator. > All end user networks are made to suffer because of the > few that are poorly configured. GigE is a current day > reality, and MTUs much larger than the lowest common > denominator should be made available to the end user > networks that paid good money for them when possible. > > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > >> 2010/10/13 Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>: >>> Hi Washam, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Washam Fan [mailto:washam.fan@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 10:48 PM >>>> To: Templin, Fred L >>>> Cc: Rémi Després; Softwires; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over >>>> 1280 MTU tunnels >>>> >>>> Hi Fred, >>>> >>>> I might see your points. >>> Good. >>> >>>> Let H represents Host, N represents NAT, S represents the 6a44 >>>> servers. PMTU(H,S) stands for the PMTU between H and S. HOME_MTU >>>> represents MTU within home LAN (i.e., unmanaged network), SP_MTU >>>> represents MTU within SP network(i.e., managed network). We assume >>>> both SP_MTU and SP_MTU should exceed or equal to 1308. >>> This is an incomplete characterization. PMTU is not >>> necessarily symmetric, e.g., even just within the end >>> user it could be different in the H->N direction than >>> in the N->H direction. Also, there could be multiple N's >>> in the path; each imparting their own MTU uncertainties. >> I assume H->N->S PMTU can be probed, Ns in between should be capable >> of translating ICMPv4 messages appropriately. As you said, S->N->H can >> not be probed as Ss are stateless. >> >>>> if HOME_MTU>=SP_MTU, PMTU(H,S)=SP_MTU, the H could >> configure SP_MTU-28 >>>> as the IPv6 virtual interface MTU. >>> A couple of things here. First, you seem to be assuming a >>> static S instead of a redundantly replicated S with anycast, >>> where there may be many distinct paths with varing SP_MTUs to >>> reach the multiple S's. >> I assume all Ss shared the same MTUs since they are located in managed >> networks. Or the MTU on their interfaces attaching SP networks can be >> configured with the least IPv4 MTU value. >> >>> Second, how does H discover SP_MTU; >>> by engaging in an initial probing by sending large packets >>> and getting a PTB message back? >> I assume H can discover PMTU traversing Ns in between. >> >>> Again, this won't give a >>> deterministic SP_MTU value if S is replicated across paths >>> with varying PMTUs. >> I assume all Ss configured with the same MTUs on their interfaces >> attaching to SP networks. >> >>>> H->S direction: if S received or trigger any ICMPv6 PTB >> messages, it >>>> can forward ICMPv6-in-UDP-in-IPv4 to H. >>> You keep saying this, and I keep saying that you are right >>> but that this has never been a matter for concern. PMTUD >>> *beyond* the tunnel is not in question; it is only PMTUD >>> *within* the tunnel that bears further discussion. >>> >>>> S->H direction: S would reject any IPv6 packets exceeding SP_MTU-28 >>>> with ICMPv6 PTB. >>>> I don't see problems here. >>> Huh? Is S supposed to cache the SP_MTU to each and every >>> potential host H? I assume the goal is for a completely >>> stateless S - right? >> I assume MTU is statically configured on Ss' interfaces attaching the >> SP networks. >> >>>> If HOME_MTU<SP_MTU,PMTU(H,S)=HOME_MTU, the H could configure >>>> HOME_MTU-28 as IPv6 virtual interface MTU. >>> So again, H could discover this only by sending probes? >>> And again, any probing would be non-deterministic if S >>> is an anycast (and not unicast) address. >> See above. >> >> Thanks, >> washam >> >>>> H->S direction: if S received or trigger any ICMPv6 PTB >> messages, it >>>> can forward ICMPv6-in-UDP-in-IPv4 to H. >>> Yes, we have confirmed this several times now; not >>> a point in question. >>> >>>> I don't expect the size of the encapsulated packet is too much. >>> Encapsulated PTB could be as big as 1280 + 20 + 8. >>> >>>> S->H direction: if S forward some IPv6 packets whose size >> is between >>>> HOME_MTU-28 and SP_MTU-28, N might trigger a ICMPv4 PTB or >> filtering >>>> them. For the former, S might don't have enough info to infer which >>>> IPv6 original packet it is related, >>> Right. >>> >>>> for the latter, black hole might occur. I see problems here. >>> Right. >>> >>> Fred >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> washam >>>> >>>> 2010/10/12 Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>: >>>>> Hi Washam, >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Washam Fan [mailto:washam.fan@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:38 PM >>>>>> To: Templin, Fred L >>>>>> Cc: Rémi Després; Softwires; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over >>>>>> 1280 MTU tunnels >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> If 6a44 deployed in a managed ISP network, the 6a44 >> client could be >>>>>> configured with IPv4_MTU-28 for its IPv6 MTU. >>>>> My understanding is that the 6a44 server is in the managed >>>>> ISP network, and the 6a44 client is in the UNmanaged end >>>>> user network. >>>>> >>>>>> For inbound direction, >>>>>> 6a44 server would reject any IPv6 packets whose size exceeds >>>>>> IPv4_MTU-28 with a ICMPv6 PTB message, so no ICMPv6-ICMPv4 >>>> translation >>>>>> needed. >>>>> Huh? How does the server have any idea what MTU the client >>>>> set on its tunnel interface? The client is behind a NAT in >>>>> an unmanaged end user network. Are you expecting the server >>>>> to probe the path MTU to the client and maintain state? (An >>>>> IRON server might be in position to do something like that, >>>>> but I was assuming the 6a44 server would be stateless, right?) >>>>> >>>>>> For outbound direction, 6a44 server would encapsulate any >>>>>> ICMPv6 PTB messages it received in UDP in IPv4, and >> then forward to >>>>>> the 6a44 client, so no NAT filtering worried. >>>>> Correct, but no one has suggested an MTU problem for what >>>>> happens to IPv6 packets *beyond* the tunnel; we are only >>>>> discussing the case of MTU issues *within* the tunnel. >>>>> >>>>> Fred >>>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> washam >>>>>> >>>>>> 2010/10/12 Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>: >>>>>>> Remi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Rémi Després [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 10:05 AM >>>>>>>> To: Templin, Fred L >>>>>>>> Cc: Washam Fan; Softwires; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over >>>>>>>> 1280 MTU tunnels >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Le 11 oct. 2010 à 18:42, Templin, Fred L a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> Actually, the 6a44 specification should, instead of 1280, >>>>>>>>>> require IPv4 MTU - 28 octets, both for hairpinning and >>>>>>>>>> traversal cases. >>>>>>>>> How can you be sure that IPv4 PMTUD will work in >>>>>>>>> the traversal case? >>>>>>>> In the to-host direction, because the ISP network is all what >>>>>>>> is left to traverse before reaching the CPE. >>>>>>> In what you call the to-host direction, any ICMPv4 >>>>>>> returned from the ISP network might not have enough >>>>>>> information for stateless translation to ICMPv6. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the from host direction, one can't be sure, but >>>> doesnt' need to. >>>>>>>> If a smaller PMTU is encountered further downstream, a PTB >>>>>>>> ICMPv6 error message will be returned from there. >>>>>>> In the from-host direction, any ICMPv4 returned from >>>>>>> the ISP network might not be delivered to the tunnel >>>>>>> endpoint due to NAT filtering, and might not have >>>>>>> enough information for stateless translation to ICMPv6. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fred >>>>>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> RD > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >
- [v4tov6transition] ISP support of Native IPv6 acr… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Ole Troan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Ole Troan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Ole Troan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Olivier Vautrin
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Cameron Byrne
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Ed Jankiewicz
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Ole Troan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Templin, Fred L
- [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over 1280… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] ISP support of… Yiu L. Lee
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Washam Fan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] ISP support of Native IPv6… Tina TSOU
- Re: [v4tov6transition] ISP support of Native IPv6… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] IPv6 VPNs conf… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] IPv6 VPNs conf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] IPv6 VPNs conf… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Washam Fan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Washam Fan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Rémi Després
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Washam Fan
- Re: [v4tov6transition] [Softwires] 6a44 MTU issues Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v4tov6transition] IPv6 VPNs configured over … Templin, Fred L