Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications - ND proxy for bridging hotspots
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Fri, 26 June 2015 15:01 UTC
Return-Path: <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE311B3087 for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 08:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.983
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3QYhui3fecRO for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 08:01:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9551B307C for <v6ops@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 08:01:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id t5QF1ALW003544; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:01:10 +0200
Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E530204D7C; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:04:08 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F498204B9E; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:04:08 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id t5QF18nq001537; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:01:10 +0200
Message-ID: <558D6934.5010608@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:01:08 +0200
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
References: <E1C235B5-1421-4DAF-A2F3-F963982233DF@apple.com> <1599CF94-9B35-4858-AD52-6FADC8F25671@apple.com> <558ABAC3.4010802@gmail.com> <4F519538-0706-4BBA-9508-3E59F7A8BB62@nestlabs.com> <558BC5AF.3060406@gmail.com> <1A95A912-FC46-4D61-9AB1-8D8E4D33AC89@delong.com>
In-Reply-To: <1A95A912-FC46-4D61-9AB1-8D8E4D33AC89@delong.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/-WdMsJQxYn9K1oeh5OzjKm4Xh78>
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications - ND proxy for bridging hotspots
X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: v6ops discussion list <v6ops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/>
List-Post: <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:01:22 -0000
Le 25/06/2015 21:08, Owen DeLong a écrit : > >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 02:11 , Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 24/06/2015 20:38, james woodyatt a écrit : >>> On Jun 24, 2015, at 07:12, Alexandru Petrescu >>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> […] In the car use-case the smartphone connects to the dashboard >>>> using a ptp link. And it's the car's dashboard which offers a >>>> WiFi hotspot. These couldn't be bridged (ND proxy) by the >>>> smartphone alone, it would need the dashboard router to participate >>>> in this ND proxy. […] >>> >>> I suspect the point you may be missing here is the logic encoded >>> elsewhere in iOS that restricts the use of Mobile Internet Sharing >>> to the telephony uplink. It is not possible with iOS to share >>> Internet access over the Wi-fi (or other interfaces) with tethered >>> devices. Only the telephony data service is eligible for Mobile >>> Internet Sharing. >> >> That is a good point. >> >> There is an ongoing technical debate in the car comm community - should >> the smartphone provide Internet connectivity to the car? Or should the >> smartphone use the Internet connectivity offered by the car. > > The car community should not be making this decision. > > The car _AND_ the smartphone should be delivered in such a way that the > end user can choose whichever plan best suits his needs and offers him the > best set of tradeoffs between features, price, and whatever else the end user > chooses to care about. This is a great formulation of requirements but there is nothing else outside the car industry that did this kind of behaviour in the past. So it's not that easy to implement. (typically a automated configuration is using RA/DHCP/NAT and these have a strong notion of directivity - client and server, provider and consumer; in the car setting you have two strongly opposed interests smartphone's and car's). You dont have one protocol that can change roles dynamically. A DHCP Server is a Server can't dynamically become a Client. A NAT is in one direction cant dynamically change direction. Worse - Internet addresses are centrally assigned and distributed, one can't make IP addresses out of nothing and reach the Internet bidirectionally. That's why it's easier if a decision were made (one of the two provides Internet to the other). > If I want the phone to provide the connectivity to the car, I should be able > to do that. > > If I want the car to provide connectivity and have the phone use that, I should > be able to do that. > > I should be able to choose and I should be able to change my decision whenever > it suits me. This is very strong requirements and difficult to meet. > >> >> Right now where I live a large number of marketed cars are on the first >> option. It is on that option that I think smartphone's iOS Mobile >> Internet Sharing can help, provided it does more than NDproxy. > > For most of the marketed cars I am aware of in the US where that is the > case, it is largely because the car doesn’t really know what a network is > in any meaningful way, or, because the car maker didn’t want to think about > solving the connectivity problem in a useful way. > > I do not know of a case where it is a well thought out decision by the > manufacturer to have that as a deliberate architecture rather than just > laziness at best. I wouldnt say laziness, some work hard at it, but it's not easy. Alex > > Owen > > >
- [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications David Schinazi
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Jeremy Visser
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Ross Chandler
- [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: Appl… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Erik Nygren
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Paul Saab
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications David Schinazi
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … 🔓Dan Wing
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications 🔓Dan Wing
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications David Schinazi
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … holger.metschulat
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Vízdal Aleš
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Vízdal Aleš
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] Happy eyeballs suggestions, was: Re: … Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [v6ops] Apple and IPv6, a few clarifications … Alexandru Petrescu