Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability

"George, Wes" <> Mon, 27 July 2015 13:57 UTC

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From: "George, Wes" <>
To: Mark Smith <>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 09:57:43 -0400
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] new draft: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability
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On 7/25/15, 11:25 PM, "Mark Smith" <> wrote:

>On 26 July 2015 at 11:21, George, Wes <> wrote:
>>What they've said is that they require a way to track which IPv6
>> are assigned to which hosts for policy and legal reasons
>So what I'd like to know more about then is the particular problem
>being trying to be solved, or more specifically the business problem
>or problems being solved.
>"Having a record of IP addresses assigned to devices" isn't a problem
>statement, it is a statement of what a mechanism such as DHCP is
>theoretically achieves. That record needs to be used for something, so
>what are those uses?
WG] We disagree on whether IETF needs to know what a given implementation
intends to do with the data in order for the problem statement to be

>I assume it is to satisfy a security need. But what are the specific
>security needs? Is there anything formal that requires it, e.g., PCI
WG] Well, I thought that the second part of the statement above was pretty
self-explanatory, but since you asked for more detail, here are a few

Enforcing/Responding to violations of AUP (spam, malware, attacks,
prohibited content, etc)
Complying with LEA requests (CALEA or equivalent, Lawful Intercept, etc),
DMCA or equivalent takedown requests
Sandboxing devices/users that do not have permission to use the network
due to nonpayment or one of the above violations
Enabling different tiers of service by device or by user, dealing with
entitlement to a given service

>The IETF can come up with a proper solution statement once a proper
>problem statement exists. Does a proper problem statement exist
WG] the problem with the "proper" problem statement you're asking for is
that I don't think the IETF really wants to know the answer because of the
very complex issues it will raise. If the explanation gets much more
detailed than "I have multiple legal and policy enforcement mandates that
require me to have a way to map an IP address/device on the network to the
user that is sending/receiving on it" you start getting into a combination
of legal and policy areas that the IETF typically stays away from. Are we
willing to make tools available for government agencies and businesses to
do things that some of our participants are opposed to? How far are we
willing to go into implementation details that involve multiple
jurisdictions and regions with conflicting views about what is legal,
illegal, and compulsory? It gets difficult to optimize a solution around
that problem space, especially to do it objectively, unless you abstract
it to a fairly high level.
The discussion also tends to devolve quickly into blaming the messenger,
in which people get angry or dismissive to the operators saying that they
need certain functionality, because they are being required by their local
government or employer to do something some consider distasteful with it,
and the operators respond by getting angry at "IETF" for telling them that
the thing that they're legally required to do isn't important or necessary
or is otherwise "wrong". I'd rather stay away from that debate here, but
if you would like to kick the hornets' nest on NANOG again to satisfy your
own curiosity, be my guest.

The only thing I agree might be unclear in my generic problem statement
above is what level of accuracy or confidence in the mapping between IP,
user, and device is necessary, and at what time resolution. In this case,
I think we can point to the systems in place today (e.g. DHCPv4) and say
that it's largely best-effort, with time accuracy on the order of seconds
or minutes, and if something better than that is required, it probably
requires implementation of additional security in address assignment
(SEND, etc).

Wes George

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