Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop
Nick Hilliard <nick@inex.ie> Tue, 16 October 2012 22:28 UTC
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 23:28:26 +0100
From: Nick Hilliard <nick@inex.ie>
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To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop@tools.ietf.org" <draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop
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>>> Why not just let non-initial fragments through and then forward >>> or don't forward the initial fragment depending on whether it >>> contains enough information in tlv headers to permit a filtering >>> decision? >> >> i spot some DoSs there. > > DoS'ing whom - the end systems? End systems know when to flush > incomplete reassemblies. The intermediate systems. Well, maybe the end systems too, but that's a different issue. The problem with the intermediate systems is how you handle the packets. Most fast/dumb boxes are able to process fixed-shape packets in hardware because ASICs are pretty good at that sort of thing. If you need to process TLVs at line rate and make forwarding decisions on that basis, then you need much smarter hardware. So the issue comes down to what happens when you have a fast/dumb box forwarding ipv6 packets with interesting headers, and the dumb box is expected to do some level of filtering. For fragments, if your dedicated hardware doesn't handle them natively, then you have a choice between: - allowing them through always - dropping them always - dropping them after a certain rate limit - punting them to a more intelligent part of the forwarding device For punted packets, most vendors punt them to the management plane because they don't have a dedicated path for handling packets which are difficult to parse. This creates a management plane DoS which can be mitigated by rate limiting the punting process. So you end up with either a management plane DoS, or an initial fragment DoS, or both. Now, you could argue that dumb fast boxes shouldn't attempt ipv6 acls in the first place, but what do you do if you want to implement v6 iACLs to protect your internal infrastructure from external attacks? Do you allow all fragments through and potentially compromise your network? Or do you drop all fragments because your routing iron only has the capability to either accept all fragments or drop them all? > For middleboxes that sit in front of > "low-end" end systems, there is also still the option of > Virtual Fragmentation Reassembly. urgh, state. As a general principal, the less state you have to deal with in your intermediate systems, the better. > Plus, if we can't rely on ICMP PTB and we can't rely on IPv6 > fragmentation/reassembly, then all we are left with is 1280 > and IPv6 is the new ATM... We had problems with this for years in the ipv4 world. IPv6 has made it much worse by implementing a difficult-to-parse IP Options style header mechanism and expecting that this is an integral part of the protocol. We fixed it in IPv4 by universally dropping packets with options and by creating an expectation that this was acceptable. IOW, there are large parts of the internet for which there is no good solution to this problem. I.e. any part which doesn't forward packets using a highly intelligent packet processing core. Nick
- [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop fred
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop C. M. Heard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Tom Taylor
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop C. M. Heard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Merike Kaeo
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- [v6ops] ODP: new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdr… Czerwonka Michał - Hurt TP
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop KK Chittimaneni
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Havard Eidnes
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Havard Eidnes
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Philipp Kern
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch