Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity? (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com> Fri, 22 February 2019 22:36 UTC
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From: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:36:05 -0700
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To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity? (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
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On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 10:06 AM Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 10:12 AM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> > wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:35 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Tom, > >> > > >> > On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 10:04, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 2:46 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 08:53, Manfredi (US), Albert E > >> > > > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > <snip> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > So I think there's commonly a big different between works and > works > >> > > > well. NAT may work, however compared to stateless IPv6 (and IPv4) > >> > > > forwarding, it doesn't work anywhere as near as well. > >> > > > > >> > > Mark, > >> > > > >> > > I agreee with that with one exception. I believe that NAT/IPv4 can > >> > > offer better privacy in addressing than IPv6 given current addess > >> > > allocation methods. > >> > > > >> > > >> > So I don't think addressing privacy via NAT is really all that > >> > valuable if there are many other ways, some quite easy, to uniquely > >> > identify an anonymity desiring end-point/end-user, whose effectiveness > >> > aren't impacted at all by NAT. > >> > > >> > For example, this website is coming over IPv4 for me, and I'm using > >> > IPv4+NAPT. If IPv4+NAPT was that effective at anonymity, I shouldn't > >> > be able to tracked. > >> > > >> > https://amiunique.org/ > >> > > >> > Yet it is saying I can be with both Chrome and Firefox on Fedora 29 in > >> > Incognito/Private windows mode on this host. It says the same about my > >> > Android 9 phone with Chrome in Incognito mode. > >> > > >> > Going into the detail of how, they don't seem to be using IP address > >> > at all for any identification, it is all browser attributes. > >> > > >> > We have IPv6 temporary addresses, which makes using addresses harder > >> > to use to identify a node. I think that is a lot better than nothing. > >> > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, but by that same rationale a simple substitution cipher is better > >> than nothing in cryptography! > >> > >> What pretty much any conversation about privacy in addressing seems to > >> lacking is a quantitative description of privacy and any empiracal > >> data on the impact that privacy mechanisms, like those defined in > >> RFC4941, have had. You might say it "makes using addresses harder to > >> use to identify a node". But then the obvious question is _how_ much > >> harder? Is this really protecting anyone's privacy, or it is just a > >> minor inconvenience to attackers and only giving users a false sense > >> of security? > >> > >> The irony is that CGN seems to have the best supporting evidence for > >> being a mechanism that impacts privacy, but it was never even intended > >> to be a privacy mechanism. The evidence is in the form of concerns > >> form law enforcement that the privacy side effect is too strong and > >> impedes their investigations > >> (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/18/europol_cgnat/). > >> > >> So I don't think "Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much > >> compared to a privacy goal of anonymity?" is the right question. The > >> right question to ask is "Is addressing privacy via any IETF defined > >> mechanism achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity?" > >> > >> Tom > > > > > > > > > > 1. Network service providers cannot provide address anonymity. LEA > requirements in the USA and many jurisdictions simply do not allow it, so > who is the customer of such a standard? Who would make and deploy it? > > The customer of this is political dissident that is speaking out > against injustice of a corrupt government. There is nothing that > prevents a solution that provides the privacy for the dissident, but > still allows their network provider to maintain records that correlate > address to identity is available to LEA for the local jurisdiction > under lawful order. This really isn't different than other areas of > privacy on the Internet (like the logs that Facebook or Google keep). > The point is that anonimity is needed to prevent unauthorized third > parties from breaking someones privacy. > > > > > 2. Network address annonimity today is generally provided via Tor. How > could the ietf provide something better than existiting tor solutions, > knowing that it will not be baked into the network — meaning it must be > over the top. > > > > I'm not sure what "provided via Tor" means. Tor is this https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en Tor is what people use today for address anonimity today > > > > 3. CGN is not private. It throw off per session logs of every > transaction, so this is a full click stream archived ... with varing levels > of intentional monetization and security from hackers. > > > Yes, it is expected that the local provider has full view of all > associations of address to some device, that's pretty much a given and > we have to trust the local provider to some extent. What we're trying > to prevent is untrusted external parties from deducing identity or > location of users. > > > > >> > >> > However, I don't see how IPv6 NAT would improve it much, and it > >> > introduces the other drawbacks of NAT. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Mark. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Tom > >> > > > >> > > > Regards, > >> > > > Mark. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Bert > >> > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > v6ops mailing list > >> > > > v6ops@ietf.org > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renumberi… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tassos Chatzithomaoglou
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLA… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achi… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Mark Smith
- [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A common p… Lencse Gábor
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A comm… Ca By
- [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A commo… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉