Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> Fri, 22 February 2019 07:51 UTC
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:50:48 +1100
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To: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Cc: Kristian McColm <kristianmccolm@hotmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 15:08, Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 8:31 PM Kristian McColm <kristianmccolm@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> Then by that same token, can the end user devices, network services and network devices not provide their own packet filtering and other security mechanisms rather than forcing all network traffic to traverse centralized security devices? >> >> It won't be a popular opinion with network security folks and security appliance vendors, but I am a believer that the endpoint device is the right place to implement network security. Intermediary network devices should not, in my opinion be doing anything other than forwarding packets to their destination. > > > +1, i have had a good experience removing stateful devices for the majority of flows from a large mobile network over the last 5 years as we transitioned for 464xlat. No downsides. > +1 Encryption plus multipath transport layer protocols like MP-TCP is really going to screw up a lot of things a lot of people are used to doing in the network. Multipathing doesn't just mean via two network interfaces, it may mean different IPv6 addresses (say, one older, one newer, during transition) temporary addresses on the same network interface. Jump to the Impacts section on slide 63 if you want to cut to the chase. "The Rapid Rise of the Mobile Multihomed Host, and what it might mean to the network" https://www.ausnog.net/sites/default/files/ausnog-2013/presentations/D01%20P06-the%20rapid%20rise%20of%20the%20mobile%20multihomed%20host.pdf Regards, Mark. > And, with larger ipv6 space and random iid, discoverability risk is very low for 3rd parties / scans / botnets > > CB >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> >> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:53:50 PM >> To: Kristian McColm >> Cc: Fernando Gont; IPv6 Operations; 6man@ietf.org; JORDI PALET MARTINEZ >> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios) >> >> On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 6:25 PM Kristian McColm >> <kristianmccolm@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Amen to that. Make the end user devices responsible for their own security. >> > >> Kristian, >> >> Devices and applications are already responsible for their own >> security. No serious application or OS would ever rely on the presence >> of an external firewall for its security. >> >> However, there is still some benefit of stateful firewalls to protect >> network resources from attack. So we want the functionality of a >> stateful firewall in stateless solution without any of the annoying >> limitations of stateful devices (like they only work with certain >> protocols, force flows to traverse specific intermediate nodes, are >> single points of failure, etc). FAST ( draft-herbert-fast-00) is one >> proposal for this. >> >> Tom >> >> _______________________________ >> > From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:23:38 PM >> > To: Fernando Gont >> > Cc: IPv6 Operations; 6man@ietf.org; JORDI PALET MARTINEZ >> > Subject: Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios) >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 6:13 PM Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > On 21/2/19 22:58, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> > > > >> > > > I agreee with that with one exception. I believe that NAT/IPv4 can >> > > > offer better privacy in addressing than IPv6 given current addess >> > > > allocation methods. >> > > > >> > > > I'm for as much privacy as possible, however, not at the cost of things such as: >> > > > - Unnecessary complexity increase >> > > > - Moving from peer-to-peer to client-server for everything >> > > > - Single point of failure >> > > > - Increasing the attacks chances by reducing the surface to the servers >> > > > - Increase the complexity of app development >> > > > - Complexity to host services in "clients" >> > > > - Complexity to use "freely" and "efficient" DNS >> > > > - etc >> > > >> > > There are two protocols associated with NATs: >> > > 1) Apps that incorporate IP addresses and ports in the app protocol >> > > require an ALG >> > > 2) Because of of the "only allow outgoing connections" side-effect of >> > > NATs, you need UPnP to open holes in the NAT, or some NAT traversal >> > > technique. >> > > >> > > >> > > "1)" goes away when you remove the NAT. >> > > >> > > "2)" does not if you replace the NAT with a stateful firewall that only >> > > allows outgoing connections. -- the majority of the IPv6 deployments >> > > I've seen use this policy/model. And, of course, this is also a single >> > > point of failure, will also increase application complexity, etc., etc., >> > > etc. >> > >> > So we need to eliminate stateful firewalls as well as NAT... >> > >> > Tom >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Fernando Gont >> > > SI6 Networks >> > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com >> > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > v6ops mailing list >> > v6ops@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renumberi… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tassos Chatzithomaoglou
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLA… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achi… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Mark Smith
- [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A common p… Lencse Gábor
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A comm… Ca By
- [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A commo… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉