Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-6man-ipv6-ula-scope-00.txt)
David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> Mon, 15 February 2021 00:02 UTC
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From: David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:02:07 -0600
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-6man-ipv6-ula-scope-00.txt)
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On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 4:38 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:54 PM, David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote: > > So when I read "uniquely identifying interfaces anywhere on the Internet", > that suggests to me the entirety of the Internet, basically anywhere and > everywhere, whether or not I can actually successfully get packets there or > not. I think that statement needs to be qualified or limited by > reachability in some way. It doesn't need to specifically mention > local-use, but I think it clarifies the issue. The fact that someone else > on the other side of the planet or even across the street is using the same > ULA prefixes as me doesn't really matter because I can't get packets there, > but that isn't that what that statement says. > > > The problem is, then you have to say what “local” means, and it doesn’t > mean anything specific. And, specifically, scope right now can be used as a > definitional meaning. If you add “site scope,” it doesn’t work, because > it’s no longer definitional—it’s operational. Trying to do the same thing > with ULA will have the same outcome. > Ok, don't talk about "local" then, but I think we need to caveat "uniquely identifying interfaces anywhere on the Internet", with reachability in some way, this is an important caveat for RFC4193. I don't see what it huts include it in RFC4007. How about "uniquely identifying interfaces anywhere reachable on the Internet". -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================
- [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addres… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… John Kristoff
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Yucel Guven
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Scope of Unique Local … Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Scope of Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Ad… Gert Doering