Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations - work or abandon?
Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> Mon, 16 November 2015 20:41 UTC
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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations - work or abandon?
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>>>> In the case of a NAT, however (more specifically a NAPT), it is not >>>> possible to program multiple port 80 terminations to land on different >>>> hosts behind the NAT. >>> >>> That's like saying that the problem with cars is that they cannot fly -- >>> yes, that's what a NAT is. >> >> Well… That is certainly a limitation of most automobiles, but I’m happy to >> report that there are working alternatives such as the Terrafugia Transition >> and some older prototypes as well. > > Then that's not a car. And that's my point. You're complaining about > something that is a characteristic of NAT. By what possible definition do you claim that the Terrafugia Transition is not a car? It is most certainly a car which is capable of doing all the things a car does and is also capable of becoming an aircraft. > That said, there's no conceptual reason for which HTTP must run at port > 80. And would be perfectly sensible to have multiple instances of > different HTTP implementations at the same host, without having to > resort to other hacks such as ip aliases. Indeed many people run HTTP on non-standard ports for a variety of reasons and many people (myself included) run other things (such as an SSH server) on port 80 for other reasons (after the first time I encountered an airport lounge that thought the only internet access I could possibly need was to ports 80 and 443, I set up an SSH server on port 80 to work around this limitation). The problem is that there’s no DNS provision for A+P records or AAAA+P records or even meaningful definitions of P records, so while it’s perfectly reasonable to have http servers at [2001:db8::1]:80, [2001:db8::1]:81, …, there’s no good way to make www.foo.com map to [2001:db8::1]:80 and www.bar.com map to [2001:db8::1]:81 in the real world. > Again: here NATs are making it very evident that harcoding HTTP to port > 80 comes at a price. No… They’re making it very evident that NAT comes at a price and part of that price may come from the convenience of having HTTP linked to a well-known port (there’s nothing magic about 80). Unless you can convince client resolver libraries and applications to make better use of SRV records, this is where we are in the real world. It wasn’t broken before NAT. Sure it represents certain assumptions that can be violated and NAT most definitely violates them in an extreme way. However, it is a fundamental tenant of the architecture that I expect the devices in the network not to edit my packets, but rather to forward them without mutilation. NAT most definitely violates this and as a result, it breaks things. Claiming that this fundamental tenant is incomplete and that NAT is not the problem is like claiming that it would be OK to introduce a square ball into a basketball game, claiming that the fact the hoops are round is a design flaw in the hoop. > You don't want a full directory service? -- Fine... then pay the price > for taking a shortcut. I want a directory service that is adequate to the task. DNS does that (mostly) and this is certainly not one of the areas where I consider it to be meaningfully deficient. The fact that NAT makes this capability more necessary than the network without NAT does not make NAT inherently acceptable. >>> I might also add that this is another kludge that is made evident by >>> NAT: there's no reason whatsoever for which a given service should run >>> in any specific transport protocol port. Consider that a kludge or >>> shortcut than a principle. >> >> Meh… There’s no mechanism available for signaling port numbers in response >> to name lookups (modulo SRV records that don’t seem to be very popular in >> practice). > > As you note, there is: SRV. > > Regarding popularity, when did popularity became a metric of correctness? It’s not a metric of correctness, but it is a metric of acceptance and more importantly, a metric of usefulness. Clearly SRV has not been deemed adequately useful to achieve wide-spread support in client software. >> There are certain advantages to the idea of well known port numbers >> and whether or not you consider them a kludge, they are certainly in widespread >> use and have a great deal of history and support in the IETF and IANA. > > Can we have a technical discussion, please? > > I'm arguing that there are many pieces of the puzzle missing, and you > answer "having a full puzzle is not popular.. besides, everyone loves > it, and we have done it for a long time”. You’re arguing that NAT isn’t broken and/or doesn’t break things, but rather that the design assumptions in the internet are what is broken and NAT being not broke proves it. It was never a technical discussion on either side. It has inherently been your religious support of diode firewalls and NAT that has driven it away from a technical discussion from the beginning. > That's like arguing that McDonald's sells quality beef because their > restaurants are usually crowded, and Mc has made a lot of profit for years. No, it’s like arguing that Fred’s Burgers is probably not going to succeed since there’s never anybody in their restaurants. I’m not arguing that the popularity of the present system makes it not broken. I’m arguing that solutions which do not achieve adoption are not solutions. > McD might make a lot of money. There might be certain advantages of > eating at McD (price (in some countries), timeliness, or whatever). But > that doesn't make a Big Mac good beef. Depends on where you go… In Moscow, the McDonald’s actually does use decent beef (or at least did the last time I ate there in 1993). Normally I’m not a fan of the golden arches, but it was what was open at this particular hour and I was pleasantly surprised how much higher the quality of the food was compared to US operations. However, that’s a side issue. The simple reality is that arguing that everyone should eat soy tofu burgers because beef burgers are somehow inadequate or soy burgers are healthier or whatever doesn’t seem to change the fact that people like beef and will go to McDonald’s or wherever else and nobody goes to the Soy Burger Drivethru. When was the last time you saw a Soy Burger Drivethru restaurant? If you’re wondering why, it’s because when nobody buys your “solution”, then your solution clearly didn’t solve anything. Owen
- [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendation… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Matthews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Jon Mitchell
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… t.petch
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Igor Gashinsky
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… joel jaeggli
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-rec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
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- [v6ops] PI heresy Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
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- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… George Michaelson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
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- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… otroan
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Michael H Lambert
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Conrad
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Octavio Alvarez
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Octavio Alvarez
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong