Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call
joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> Mon, 09 February 2015 17:40 UTC
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 09:40:14 -0800
From: joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
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To: "Heatley, Nick" <nick.heatley@ee.co.uk>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile.all@tools.ietf.org>, V6 Ops List <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call
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On 2/9/15 1:14 AM, Heatley, Nick wrote: > Just a reminder on why I, as an operator, have a need of a document > from the IETF. I desire: - an IP profile from IETF - IETF is the home > of IP and Internet Engineering (but happy to tie up with 3GPP etc.) - > a profile for mobile devices when the network offers them IPv6-only > (dualstack will not get us beyond IPv4 exhaustion) - a single > recommended profile covering all mobile use cases - handset cellular > data, handset tethering, mobile broadband; an informational standard > will suffice - I will use this as a NORM in further discussions with > terminal vendors. Yes, many operators will have further discussions > with many terminal vendors, terminal software/configuration on the > whole is fragmented. > > Contrary to some of the views expressed ("that some IPv6 is out there > in mobile land, therefore by induction all mobile issues are > resolved") there are still some issues and grey areas. As far as I > know there are only a few open market device model "families", that > may work IPv6-only with full backwards compatibility with IPv4, and > provides stable tethering, and implement APN roaming controls. For > all other vendor models that are badged as IPv6, you need to request > a per operator build. Will the relevant features in the build be the > same for all operators, in all regions? How can one operator really > say without some global norm to compare this to? If the Google guy > says it is all fine, that is great news. I'd feel better if the LG > guy, Samsung guy, Apple guy, HTC guy etc. etc. all came on the V6Ops > list with the same message. Our devices teams do not normally get > involved with such low level requirements as IP protocol versions. We > have vendors that we haven’t even started talking to yet about IPv6. > > Similarly, find me a mobile network where all IPv6-enabled terminal > models are in IPv6-only mode for all use cases (c.f. cellular data, > tethering, mobile broadband) using standards build. Those are hard to > find; as an industry we are not there yet. (No disrespect, this is > due to business reasons: some operators have gone dualstack APN, some > have another APN for tethering, some have chosen hardcoding of > prefix64, some need a common APN for all IP connectivity modes....). > It is important to recognise the operator differences. > > As one of the authors, we were advised by the WG that normative > language was not appropriate for this document as it was a feature > list /buffet of options/list document rather than a standard. Fine, > it is not a standard, it is not a problem to accept that and make > that perfectly clear in the paper. But equally I would suspect that > as it is not a standard this is why the document has expanded with > all the best buffet of features available mandatory/optional/required > for certain use cases. Well it essentially started with this list of features, so I don't accept that it has ballooned as product of non-normative language. If in total one didn't it like before and the language change didn't mollify, you probably still don't. We have a channel for publishing non-consesus documents but it's not the working group process. I believed, perhaps mistakenly that we could move this to a more durable consensus on the basis of text changes to take it away from requirements. > Now the document appears to be being blasted for exactly this > extensive list of non-mandatory features. Is that fair? Has a steer > been given here, and is everyone agreed on the steer? > > The question in my mind is this, if we produce a document that > focuses only on features for IPv6-only mode of operation (which I may > support, not sure of other authors' positions), can we use normative > language and produce an informational standard? Will that be more > agreeable to the detractors? If it could be done without resetting > the process too far back and it turned opposition into support, then > I'd support it. I think the IPv6-only profile is more urgent than the > equivalent IPv4v6 dual stack profile, based on my viewpoint, again I > cannot speak for all authors. > > Not having a NORM document, leaves the industry in a hole in my > opinion. I hope we can find a timely way forward. Regards, Nick > > > -----Original Message----- From: v6ops > [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred) Sent: > 03 February 2015 19:18 To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: > draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile.all@tools.ietf.org; V6 Ops > List Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last > call > > >> On Jan 30, 2015, at 4:21 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >> >> With all due respect, I'm afraid we are not discussing whether the >> document is needed or not but (as I see it) whether the new >> version does not break the WG consensus that was declared for the >> version sent to the IESG. I recall that both the WG and IETF >> consensus were declared for the version sent to the IESG. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile/history/ > > > > > > > > That’s not quite the way I recall it. In the WG, consensus has > always been rough. I sent it out when the number of people stating a > dissenting position dwindled. In the IETF LC in September 2013, > James, Lorenzo, and Owen made comments that caused Joel to withdraw > it from the IESG. In the IETF LC in September 2014 and subsequent > IESG discussion, comments were raised by several in the IESG and > summarized by Brian Haberman to the effect that the document has > serious issues. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile/ballot/. > > > > > > > In this round, you have tried to address the issues raised. > > Before I bother the IESG with it a third time, I’d really like to > hear a clear consensus, not a rough one. Where it stands right now, > that’s not at all obvious. > > NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER This e-mail (including any attachments) is > intended for the above-named person(s). 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- [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile la… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Olaf.Bonness
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… david.binet
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… david.binet
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… david.binet
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… david.binet
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… t.petch
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Dave Michaud
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Dave Michaud
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Dave Michaud
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Mikael Abrahamsson