Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations-02.txt
Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> Tue, 18 February 2014 03:42 UTC
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:39:00 -0800
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References: <20140214091302.13219.20624.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <m21tz6javn.wl%randy@psg.com> <1442fd6c81e.5859224653900445752.5189762259388794287@internetdraft.org> <52FEBE28.1010006@gmail.com> <8E2A8B56-6F05-4F09-BE7E-651B9CA42458@delong.com> <5300CE32.1050808@gmail.com> <BD473E46-E382-44E6-B474-A56D074318FA@delong.com> <530104B3.3070205@gmail.com> <53010E70.5000401@gmail.com> <20140217110013.GA31822@mushkin> <62FF9B8A-2F21-4FDD-B1D2-82B8C02A21B3@delong.com> <37638184-17C6-4C8B-86B1-C596A5A5504A@nominum.com> <530242C3.4070108@bogus.com>
To: joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/MT9Q8wg59f30rGplctPvN015fag
Cc: V6 Ops List <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations-02.txt
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On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:11 AM, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote: > On 2/17/14, 8:38 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:35 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote: >>> Cases that propose NPT, NAT, or other translation mechanisms are >>> examples where it is detrimental. >> >> This is clearly true, but we can't do much about it other than to >> encourage people to avoid this, and help them to avoid it by giving >> them alternatives. >> >>> Cases where it ends up getting routed amongst "cooperating" parties >>> are likely to eventually lead to detrimental usage because the >>> natural trend is for them to become increasingly routed across more >>> and more ASNs and eventually to become a form of de facto >>> registered address space not administered by any structured or >>> reliable registry and without any form of community based policy >>> process (such as the current RIRs). >> >> This is a fun doomsday scenario, but we don't have this with RFC 1918 >> addresses today; why would we have it with ULAs tomorrow? > > we route rfc 1918 between cooperating parties today. as noted it > requires coordination and is painful. > >> In fact, >> ULAs fix one of the really big problems with RFC 1918 addresses: >> there are so few of the latter that when two corporations that use >> RFC 1918 numbering internally merge, you have a really bad >> renumbering problem, and wind up doing more NATs than you otherwise >> would have. > > what consenting adults do within the privacy of their own asns is really > none of my business. > > If widely deployed in an uncoordinated fashion it becomes toxic for > globally coordinated use, which precludes owen's scenario. the fact that > we have 41 bits instead of 23.5 doesn't really obviate that. > I would argue that the current situation with RFC-1918 proves that with additional bits (it’s 105, not 41), it is, in fact possible for people to do really bad things which later merge after it is too late. >> So I think this use case is one where ULAs actually do really well. >> >> Do you have some reason for thinking that your doomsday scenario is >> likely, or is it sufficient to you that it's possible, and therefore >> you want to avoid it? Yes. Case in point, the observed leakage of RFC-1918 into various parts of the internet, the deliberate routing of boron space among several cooperating entities that I have observed over my career (I can’t name names due to NDA, but a very large Telco is using 100.0.0.0/8 for the VOIP interactions and demanding that their suppliers route that network with them, for example). Given the history of what happens with uncoordinated space in IPv4, legitimately or otherwise, I have no reason to believe that ULA isn’t simply a larger, less inconvenient opportunity to create a much larger problem of the same form without any of the inherent drawbacks and limitations which prevented RFC-1918 from getting truly out of hand. Owen
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Randy Bush
- [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-re… internet-drafts
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… ek
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Jan-Frode Myklebust
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ray Hunter
- [v6ops] multiple prefixes [no longer draft-ietf-v… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] multiple prefixes [no longer draft-ie… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] multiple prefixes [no longer draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] multiple prefixes [no longer draft-ie… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] multiple prefixes [no longer draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… William Cerveny
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usag… Owen DeLong