Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> Wed, 22 July 2015 10:23 UTC
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References: <201507071147.t67Bl13m009348@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <CAO42Z2x7mNFbB_w_+W+80pY+LeCAKXaOBXMmQvkcaMSWhwW60g@mail.gmail.com> <EF21B630-5D0A-415A-A93F-9058900CC80C@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2zAqMXhBZ2wa=q0wtHGhMpMWU9TSjfFyd2quiki9w0oSw@mail.gmail.com> <85CADAA2-8DF2-4A6B-812B-7A77081936F5@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2w3fOxGJHasKqYZRfGZ2u=7FnZBm+jgLtgDvfZ7HYW=iw@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2z+DwOin23HQTysrZ9dNP924+LQ-vOExmJc_xZUEB4yCQ@mail.gmail.com> <228248C6-94FE-4C9C-A875-F732EFDC6601@cisco.com> <55AD3B64.5070400@acm.org> <CAPi140P+kfpyQKzCRDA7bZQRowQx_YRcZYa85hHe64g4AvsVTg@mail.gmail.com> <C5901B99-F3A7-4DB0-8216-38D95EA89D6A@delong.com> <CAMugd_Xox_zYv6oftPdAZVZGz+FYZo+Dm-QRSSn4pMEj-x1XjA@mail.gmail.com> <55AF0964.1060006@gmail.com>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:22:38 +0200
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To: Alejandro Acosta <alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
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Thanks for all the feedback. We have posted a -01 addressing some of the feedback we got. The new version also contains a new recommendation not to send periodic RAs too frequently, so we have changed the title to "Reducing battery impact of Router Advertisements". https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast-01 If there are no objections, we will upload this as a WG document in the next few days. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Alejandro Acosta < alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi There, > I also support this document, it's very positive to see that this > algorithm will save energy. > > Regards, > > Alejandro, > > El 7/21/2015 a las 6:11 PM, Nabil Benamar escribió: > > Hi Folks, > > I support this document which is very informative, useful and its > implementation will certainly reduce energy consumption due to excessive > Multicast RA sent. The proposed algorithm seems to be suitable for this end > ! > > > Best regards > > > > On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote: > >> It seems to me that the following algorithm would be relatively easy to >> implement >> and provide reasonable network optimization… >> >> >> On receipt of an RS: >> >> if(multicast_ra_time_remaining > 15 seconds) >> { >> Send_Unicast_ra >> } >> else >> { >> Send_Multicast_ra >> reset_multicast_timer >> } >> >> In this way, if the timing is reasonably close, you multicast a packet >> you were about to send >> anyway, but if the timing isn’t close, you’re not wasting multicast >> bandwidth answering a single >> node where nobody else cares. >> >> Overall, I’ve always thought that multicast response to RS was kind of >> silly. It’s probably most >> harmful on WiFi. >> >> Owen >> >> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 02:33 , Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko <ayourtch@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > On 7/20/15, Erik Nordmark < <nordmark@acm.org>nordmark@acm.org> wrote: >> >> On 7/17/15 9:34 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: >> >>>> So the next logical thing to do would be to have the router default >> to >> >>>> unicast Router Advertisements, measure the rate of received Router >> >>>> Solicitations, and switch to multicast RA mode past a certain >> >>>> threshold to cover this sort of situation. Once the number of RSes >> >>>> falls, it switches back to unicast RA mode. >> >>>> >> >>>> That would get rid of the configuration knob proposed in this ID, and >> >>>> is behaviour that I think could be universal for all link types, >> >>>> rather than just for the case of wireless ones with mobile devices. >> >>> If it were me implementing it, I think I would go about this in a >> little >> >>> different way, hopefully simpler. I would want to send at most one >> (e.g., >> >>> either zero or one) RA per some interval (a second?). In the normal >> case, >> >>> that is sent unicast. However, having sent a unicast RA at time t, if >> I >> >>> now receive another RS before t+1, I send the next one (at time t+1) >> as a >> >>> multicast. >> >> >> >> First of all I support this document as a WG document. >> >> >> >> But in terms of implementation, isn't it simpler to always(*) respond >> to >> >> a RS with a unicast RA? >> > >> > Yes. I did not respond on-list yet - but from operational perspective >> > "always send solRA unicast" / "always send solRA multicast" definitely >> > wins in my book, and I'd avoid premature optimizations (but maybe we >> > can say the implementers are explicitly free to do their own >> > optimizations if they see fit) >> > >> > That said, will be very interesting to hear data from folks who will >> > run "all-unicast solRA", in real networks and then compare the effect >> > of their proposal optimizations on their real-world scenarios. >> > >> >> As background, the text in RFC4861 comes from the old concern that all >> >> devices might boot at the same time when the power is re-established >> >> after a building power failure; that doesn't happen since most devices >> >> (laptops, smartphones, IoT devices) have batteries today. In that case >> >> it might have made sense to sending fewer RA messages by using >> multicast. >> >> >> >> (*) the only case in RFC 4861 when I think a multicast response might >> be >> >> considered is when the source IPv6 address in the RS is the unspecified >> >> address. Further, an implementation which rate limits received RS >> >> packets (e.g., CoPP in a router) might also want to detect when the >> rate >> >> limit might have dropped RS packets and multicast an RA in that case. >> >> >> >> >> >> I do wonder why implementations haven't already changed to send unicast >> >> solicited RA, and whether it would make a difference if we have an >> > >> > TBH that's my concern as well. I think we should tweak the text in >> > 4861 to encourage a bit more consideration on the implementer's side. >> > >> >> informational document asking them to do this. Alternatively we could >> >> have a proposed standard which updates section 6.2.6 to change the "MAY >> >> unicast" to a "SHOULD unicast". >> > >> > Yeah, I actually have had the different text aimed for 6man, but >> > Lorenzo's concern was 6man would say "there is no protocol update >> > here, go away", so he rewrote it for v6ops. >> > >> > We should probably discuss this at the mic and get the opinion of the >> > 6man chairs - if there is no outright "no" on this, a normative doc >> > would be a better way to convince the implementers ? >> > >> >> >> >> FWIW the draft incorrectly refers to section 6.2.4 instead of 6.2.6. >> > >> > Nice catch, thanks! >> > >> > --a >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Erik >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> v6ops mailing list >> >>> v6ops@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> v6ops mailing list >> >> v6ops@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > v6ops mailing list >> > v6ops@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing listv6ops@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >
- [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-un… fred
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith