Re: [v6ops] PI heresy

[Mark Andrews <[e-mail]>]

In message <[e-mail]>
, George Michaelson writes:
> 
> this is a specious argument.  Its as specious as the 'one IP per citizen'
> complaints relating to some national numbering plans, or the model of
> assigning v6 to motor vehicle vendors.
> 
> the reason its specious, is twofold
> 
> 1) it has a natural ramp up. to get every SME up to speed and *able* to
> multihome and route, takes time. Therefore there is no cliff moment: its a
> process. A process which emerges, over time, and permits adjustment of the
> routing model to cope.

Your assuming multi-homing.  If you don't have PA, ULA + PA and
don't have ULA + NAT then PI is all that is left and there is a
very small bar to jump to be singly attached.  You don't even need
to run a routing protocol.  You just need the ISP to inject the /48
for you.

Owen wants us to just recommend PI and to forget about PA, ULA +
PA and ULA + NAT.  If that is the recommendation then we will have
125M /48's within a couple of years.  That's why we should reject
Owen's recommedation and go with something more conservative.

	e.g. a mixture of PI, PA and PA + ULA.

> 2) other processes are also placing pressure on routing slots and the
> routing model. Therefore, by the time we need to handle 150-250m SMEs
> (after all there will be more..) we will have evolved models of both
> address management, and scoped routing, and abstract routing data models
> which suit the scale we need.
> 
> please don't make assumptions now, based on future fear. We have nothing to
> fear, except fear itself.
> 
> _G
> 
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> > On 13/11/2015 10:48, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > >
> > > In message <[e-mail]>, Owen
> > DeLong write
> > > s:
> > >>
> > >>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:43 , Gert Doering <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:36:06AM -0800, Owen DeLong wrote:
> > >>>>> The IETF world does not (at least "should not") revolve around
> > "companies
> > >> ",
> > >>>>> and I wish you good luck finding a SoHo ISP that will route your PI
> > space
> > >> .
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 2620:0:930::/48
> > >>>
> > >>> This is not a typical SoHo ISP.
> > >>>
> > >>> Try finding one which is not your employer.
> > >>
> > >> neither of the upstreams for that address employs me at this time.
> > >>
> > >> Admittedly I did use to work for ONE of the two, but anyone can get
> > that one
> > >> to route their /48.
> > >
> > > And how many SME's are there in the world?  This paper [1] puts the
> > > number at 125M MSME world wide.  That's 125M routing slots if
> > > everyone gets a /48.
> >
> > Thanks for that reference. My estimate of 10M was based on some hand-waving
> > arguments about how many SMEs might seriously want to be multihomed; IMHO
> > most of them will be perfectly happy with PA addressing because they will
> > have anything that needs a stable address hosted anyway. Most SOHOs just
> > don't
> > care, and get renumbered without knowing it after power fails etc. Homenet
> > takes this as a given, of course.
> >
> >     Brian
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > [1]
> > http://www.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/9ae1dd80495860d6a482b519583b6d16/MSME-CI
> -AnalysisNote.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
> > >
> > >> Owen
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> v6ops mailing list
> > >> [e-mail]
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
> 
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> 
> <div dir=3D"ltr">this is a specious argument.=C2=A0 Its as specious as the =
> &#39;one IP per citizen&#39; complaints relating to some national numbering=
>  plans, or the model of assigning v6 to motor vehicle vendors.<div><br></di=
> v><div>the reason its specious, is twofold</div><div><br></div><div>1) it h=
> as a natural ramp up. to get every SME up to speed and *able* to multihome =
> and route, takes time. Therefore there is no cliff moment: its a process. A=
>  process which emerges, over time, and permits adjustment of the routing mo=
> del to cope.</div><div><br></div><div>2) other processes are also placing p=
> ressure on routing slots and the routing model. Therefore, by the time we n=
> eed to handle 150-250m SMEs (after all there will be more..) we will have e=
> volved models of both address management, and scoped routing, and abstract =
> routing data models which suit the scale we need.</div><div><br></div><div>=
> please don&#39;t make assumptions now, based on future fear. We have nothin=
> g to fear, except fear itself.</div><div><br></div><div>_G</div></div><div =
> class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 a=
> t 9:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.=
> [e-mail]" target=3D"_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt=
> ;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 13/11/2015 10:48, Mark=
>  Andrews wrote:<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; In message &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:95BC3D07-EF27-45A9-A1E0-12F9B43061C7@=
> delong.com">[e-mail]</a>&gt;, Owen D=
> eLong write<br>
> &gt; s:<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:43 , Gert Doering &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
> :[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:36:06AM -0800, Owen DeLong wrote:<b=
> r>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The IETF world does not (at least &quot;should not&quo=
> t;) revolve around &quot;companies<br>
> &gt;&gt; &quot;,<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and I wish you good luck finding a SoHo ISP that will =
> route your PI space<br>
> &gt;&gt; .<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2620:0:930::/48<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; This is not a typical SoHo ISP.<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Try finding one which is not your employer.<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; neither of the upstreams for that address employs me at this time.=
> <br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; Admittedly I did use to work for ONE of the two, but anyone can ge=
> t that one<br>
> &gt;&gt; to route their /48.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; And how many SME&#39;s are there in the world?=C2=A0 This paper [1] pu=
> ts the<br>
> &gt; number at 125M MSME world wide.=C2=A0 That&#39;s 125M routing slots if=
> <br>
> &gt; everyone gets a /48.<br>
> <br>
> Thanks for that reference. My estimate of 10M was based on some hand-waving=
> <br>
> arguments about how many SMEs might seriously want to be multihomed; IMHO<b=
> r>
> most of them will be perfectly happy with PA addressing because they will<b=
> r>
> have anything that needs a stable address hosted anyway. Most SOHOs just do=
> n&#39;t<br>
> care, and get renumbered without knowing it after power fails etc. Homenet<=
> br>
> takes this as a given, of course.<br>
> <br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; Mark<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; [1] <a href=3D"http://www.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/9ae1dd80495860d6a482=
> b519583b6d16/MSME-CI-AnalysisNote.pdf?MOD=3DAJPERES" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
> get=3D"_blank">http://www.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/9ae1dd80495860d6a482b5195=
> 83b6d16/MSME-CI-AnalysisNote.pdf?MOD=3DAJPERES</a><br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; Owen<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
> &gt;&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
> &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a><br>
> &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"nor=
> eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><=
> br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> v6ops mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a><br>
> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
> target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
> </blockquote></div><br></div>
> 
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-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
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