Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition solutions -- NAT64/DNS64 remains insufficient
James Woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com> Tue, 24 March 2015 22:22 UTC
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References: <CAD6AjGT-hG-uvRQvRosrZtfrf0Nb8ne9jy=tD9oh=5zNM42Xsg@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1503200639340.20507@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20150320134204.32af9c67@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> <A0BB7AD89EA705449C486BDB5FDCBC7B28518DD8@OPE10MB06.tp.gk.corp.tepenet> <550F1F1F.3060703@cernet.edu.cn> <CAD6AjGSxk-Hrf_NBOjpV-jvraG+xSA4p1j-AO+FQFcVGzuf1Lg@mail.gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr3ywVy_00GYuw4Eq6cW_ZeL16bxpquaWWDMgSz44LagAg@mail.gmail.com> <CAD6AjGS-QMi+3oVGWDxnSMhEJH=VymwcF=PwKLdwFRxwHpp_-Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr3Fhnx3XaXouK57gupGOzodKGb0quhQxaf76NjWxSp3WA@mail.gmail.com> <CADhXe51MUB-czeCtpc63E0cHPpb_39Vv0o2Y57EVU2w_makP5Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAD6AjGTcKgK8W+VB1H5EQpHaYiKVYXqOz_2RS-w_CiTf9kL2CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:22:19 -0500
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From: James Woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com>
To: IPv6 Ops WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition solutions -- NAT64/DNS64 remains insufficient
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Cameron, Lorenzo— Lorenzo writes, "I think the real discussion here is whether going from #2 [IPv6 + IPv4/NAT] to #4 [IPv6-ONLY] without passing through #3 [IPv6 + 464XLAT] is possible at all. If you believe that it's possible, then #2 makes sense. If you believe it's not possible, then the only thing that makes sense is to do #3 ASAP." My reply: "I don't agree with that characterization of the discussion. A very large faction of the Internet community remains convinced to this day that IPv6-ONLY is neither necessary nor even desirable. I'm partially sympathetic— I see it as desirable in the long term, absolutely, but I recognize that I don't yet have convincing arguments that it's strictly necessary, much less necessary to get there this decade. If IPv6-ONLY is desirable but not actually necessary, as many people still believe, then the discussion is about whether IPv6-ONLY is more or less desirable than IPv6 + IPv4/NAT. Can we honestly say we know which of those outcomes is better? I can't." Cameron writes, "IPv4 dependence is hurting the internet and allows for middle-box proliferation." My reply: "I agree that IPv4 dependency is hurting the Internet, but I also view 464XLAT as a scheme to prolong the viability of IPv4-only software. I also don't agree that IPv4 dependence is any more permissive of middlebox proliferation than IPv6 is permissive of it. From my view, it looks like IPv6 is at least as permissive as IPv4 and probably more permissive because the prevalence of NAT in IPv4 makes some middlebox functions more difficult to deploy. Shorter james. This middlebox comment smells all kinds of wrong to me." Cameron also writes, "So, perhaps a BCP from the IETF would make it clear what is best and what is not-best." My reply: "It might make 'somewhat less unclear' what IETF thinks is best vs. non best. I believe it would make very clear that IETF thinks developing software that depends on IPv4-ONLY programming interfaces is a best CURRENT practice, which would make it much more difficult— at a critical juncture in the transition to IPv6— to communicate to developers that adopting IPv6-aware programming interfaces is important, and I would feel compelled to object to that." -- james woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com> Nest Labs, Communications Engineering
- [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Kossut Tomasz - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Czerwonka Michał 1 - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Czerwonka Michał 1 - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Keith Moore
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Keith Moore
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt