Re: [v6ops] Are we competitive?

Xipengxiao <xipengxiao@huawei.com> Mon, 08 August 2022 15:56 UTC

Return-Path: <xipengxiao@huawei.com>
X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0BBC157B4D for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 08:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.905
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jLZu0JZJPPG9 for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3BF7C157B52 for <v6ops@ietf.org>; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 08:56:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4M1gfx0cBzz67Zdq; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 23:51:37 +0800 (CST)
Received: from fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.61) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:56:03 +0200
Received: from fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.61]) by fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.61]) with mapi id 15.01.2375.024; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:56:03 +0200
From: Xipengxiao <xipengxiao@huawei.com>
To: "Philipp S. Tiesel" <philipp@tiesel.net>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: Ed Horley <ed@hexabuild.io>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Are we competitive?
Thread-Index: AQHYoi0VzAmcPXlT+U+ha/iJFvXdnq2TY7wAgAC0IKCAAA2oAIAAJ4XA///n74CAAEx0gIAQXceAgAAoImA=
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 15:56:02 +0000
Message-ID: <b4f1dd5fd5f34c63b1638660413c7293@huawei.com>
References: <e4a35f0c-757a-aefa-c211-05b6015a4215@gmail.com> <YuJXbruluDmzF3RD@Space.Net> <ec68b29c62034d3e98adec9c5da45ff3@huawei.com> <25e4f9e4-e055-241c-7047-97dca8b09cc8@gmail.com> <3c35a91af90d4b82af724e7ce98378d3@huawei.com> <CAE=N4xcPq3CB5DDjPOk3oAqBfpJRebhXsFExSEAX_Yr3_XsSUg@mail.gmail.com> <97662d43-7daa-191c-792b-49a626fb9769@gmail.com> <0F8BFE03-BDCB-4789-B4B1-FD3811430863@tiesel.net>
In-Reply-To: <0F8BFE03-BDCB-4789-B4B1-FD3811430863@tiesel.net>
Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [10.45.159.127]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b4f1dd5fd5f34c63b1638660413c7293huaweicom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/Rtt4xlA2Vh9Ah5V5gUlQ8S15h7A>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Are we competitive?
X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: v6ops discussion list <v6ops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/>
List-Post: <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 15:56:12 -0000

Hi Philipp,

We will probably go ahead to write such a book.  The content will be something like this:


  *   A short “IPv6 Quick Guide”, 50-100 pages, for network engineers in operators and enterprises.  Rather than reading 500 RFCs, they can read this book to get a big picture of IPv6.  As Fred said, this book will link to some selected RFCs.   A tentative TOC:
     *   Overview of IPv6 technologies
     *   Overview of IPv6 deployment status
     *   Considerations for operator deployment, and case studies
     *   Considerations for enterprise deployments, and case studies

Brian suggested that the book will be:



a) free of charge on the Internet

b) perhaps print-on-demand for $$

c) written and edited "Wikipedia-style" by a group of experts

d) but with a clearly agreed table of contents and a single editor to guarantee quality


This way, the book can be updated timely, and everybody who wants to contribute can contribute. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Regards,

XiPeng

From: Philipp S. Tiesel <philipp@tiesel.net>
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 2:30 PM
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Ed Horley <ed@hexabuild.io>; Xipengxiao <xipengxiao@huawei.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Are we competitive?

Hi,


On 29. Jul 2022, at 04:33, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 29-Jul-22 10:00, Ed Horley wrote:

I believe Rick Graziani updated IPv6 Fundamentals, Second Edition from Cisco Press in 2017. Prior to that, Tom Coffeen's IPv6 Address Planning book was published in 2014, and mine was published in Dec 2013 but I would not consider Tom or my book to be one you would necessarily use in a classroom for instruction.

I agree. For example, consider a general introduction to networking that you might find in a Computer Science major, which for the last many years has been based on IPv4 as a given. OK, sometimes you'll find a mention of IPv6. An example text book for such a course is Computer Networking, 8th Edition, James F. Kurose and Keith Ross, Pearson. I haven't seen that exact edition (published 2020) but the relevant bit of the contents says:

4.3    The Internet Protocol (IP): IPv4, Addressing, IPv6, and More
   4.3.1    IPv4 Datagram Format
   4.3.2    IPv4 Addressing
   4.3.3    Network Address Translation (NAT)
   4.3.4    IPv6

In other words, IPv6 is an afterthought.

(In the 7th edition, published 2016, but still widely in use, there are 5 pages on IPv6 following 20 pages on IPv4+NAT. Of course they look very out of date today.)

We want to see this:

4.3    The Internet Protocol (IP): IPv6, Addressing, Legacy IPv4
   4.3.1    IPv6 Datagram Format
   4.3.2    IPv6 Addressing
   4.3.3    Legacy: IPv4 and Network Address Translation (NAT)

Get students past that stage and then the dedicated IPv6 books can come into play.

The only book I came across recently that did this differently is Olivier Bonaventure's open-source computer-networking book<htts://beta.computer-networking.info/syllabus/default/protocols/ipv6.html#ip-version-6> book.

I remember fighting my Ph.D. advisor to make IPv6 and IPv4 at least equals in her networks, protocols and architecture lesson and I guess this is not standard today.
Looking at recent training material I came across, some people still teach classful routing…

-> I guess the IETF could really try to help to modernise academic teaching by providing a good stash of up-to-date material.

AVE!
   Philipp



  Brian


My question would be, are you looking for a book to teach the fundamentals of the protocol? If so, Rick's book is more than sufficient and I would not be surprised if he will be updating it for a Third Edition. If you are not looking for a fundamentals book but something else, what is it you are looking for?
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:52 PM Xipengxiao <xipengxiao=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:xipengxiao=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> <mailto:40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
   Hi Brian,


   Writing an IPv6 text book is a great idea!  I googled and the newest IPv6 book was from 2014.  At that time, IPv6 deployment has just started.  Many progresses have been made since then.  I think it’s warranted to write a new book.   Plus, the covers of those books associated IPv6 with snails and turtles.  It’s time to associate IPv6 with something faster like dinosaurs J


   Who can better lead this effort than you, Fred, Eric Vyncke, Fernando et al?  I am willing to contribute a fair amount of time to this effort.  I hope other experts can contribute too.  Thanks. XiPeng     -----Original Message-----
   From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
   Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 5:05 PM
   To: Xipengxiao <xipengxiao@huawei.com<mailto:xipengxiao@huawei.com> <mailto:xipengxiao@huawei.com>>; Gert Doering <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net> <mailto:gert@space.net>>
   Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
   Subject: Re: [v6ops] Are we competitive?
   Hi XiPeng,
   Mainly I agree and this is a very useful summary.
   However, we should question whether RFCs are the correct way forward, rather than some kind of collaboration to produce an ideal text book.
   For example, consider the 3 volumes of "TCP/IP Illustrated" by Stevens & Wright. I believe that had tremendous impact (published 1994, so no IPv6).
   If we go the RFC route, won't we just end up with 520 IPv6 RFCs?
   Regards
        Brian Carpenter
   On 29-Jul-22 06:59, Xipengxiao wrote:
    > On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 02:51:43PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:


    >  >> Following the ongoing discussion about "IPv6-only" and why sites are still IPv4-only, I have a question: Are we competitive?


    >  > [Gert] This is a valid question, which I feel hard to answer for the general case.


    > Let me be blunt and say that IPv6 is not as competitive as we want/think.  If we are to improve, we need to have a common understanding of the current IPv6 situation, the issues and the possible solutions. Here is my 2c for starting the discussion:


    > IPv6 is currently like a messy forest:


    > ·littered with dead trees (obsolete features/solutions),


    > ·smell bad (many operations & performance issues),


    > ·too many roads inside the forest (too many transition solutions, too many address types), not well marked (without clear solution guidelines), and fairly confusing


    > ·the roads are difficult to walk (complex address architecture, debatable header design, many complex solutions like source/destination address selection, ND).


    > This forest has 1 big advantage: plenty of O2 (addresses).  Consequently, many people avoid this forest but those really need O2 come. A small number of “grey/white wizards” (the experts) live in the forest. They know every tree (feature/solution) well.  But they tend to focus on fixing individual trees than fixing the forest.


    > If we want to attract more residents to the forest (IPv6 adopters), it’s more important to fix the forest than to fix the trees.  Some ideas:


    > ·Provide better tour guide book (i.e. IPv6 solution overviews): There are about 500 IPv6-related RFCs.  Some are obsoleted and some are conflicting.  I think we should summarizing them and providing guidelines, so that people can read fewer RFCs to master IPv6.  (e.g. the ND deployment guideline draft summarizing 30+ RFCs into 1 draft)


    > ·Among the many possible routes (e.g. solutions), recommend only the most popular ones (e.g. recommend only Dual-Stack, 464XLAT and MAP-T among the 10+ transition solutions).


    > ·Provide better road signs in the forest (i.e. solution guidelines): IPv6 solutions are almost complete.  Now it’s more important to write guidelines to simplify operations than to develop more solutions.


    > ·Identify haphazard places in the forest, and post clear “caution” signs (i.e. identify IPv6 operations/performance issues, and provide guidelines/BCPs)


    > ·Enlist existing residents to share experience on how to settle into this forest (i.e. case sharing from Cisco, Alibaba etc).


    > BTW, upon the request of an enterprise, a few on-site attendees had a small side meeting on Monday.  Their **anonymous** opinions and future actions are summarized in the attachment for your info.  If you are interested to join the discussion and contribute, please voice up.  Thank you.  XiPeng


   ___
   v6ops mailing list
   v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>
--
Ed Horley
ed@hexabuild.io<mailto:ed@hexabuild.io> <mailto:ed@hexabuild.io>| (925) 876-6604
Advancing Cloud, IoT, and Security with IPv6
https://hexabuild.io <https://hexabuild.io/>
And check out the IPv6 Buzz Podcast at https://packetpushers.net/series/ipv6-buzz/ <https://packetpushers.net/series/ipv6-buzz/>
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

AVE!
  Philipp S. Tiesel / phils…
--
   {phils}--->---(phils@in-panik.de<mailto:phils@in-panik.de>)--->---(http://phils.in-panik.de)----,
      wenn w eine   aube ist dn      man au dran dre en                   |
           o     Schr        an muss     hc         h   (Kurt Schwitters) |
:wq!  <----(phone: +49-179-6737439)---<---(jabber: phils@in-panik.de<mailto:phils@in-panik.de>)----'