Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment

[Yannis Nikolopoulos <[e-mail]>]

Jordi,

as a large(ish) residential ISP will everything you mention and 90% of 
our residential customers with native IPv6, we struggle to get IPv6 
traffic near the 50% mark

Yannis

On 3/28/21 11:19 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> I can confirm that ... just say it in my previous email ...
>
> Note also that for residential ISPs, reaching IPv6 levels close to 90% is trivial. It happens overnight, because the big volume of traffic to CDNs such as Netflix, Youtube/Google, Facebook, Akamai, etc., etc. which have already IPv6 on.
>
>
>   
>
> El 28/3/21 21:25, "v6ops en nombre de Lencse Gábor" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:
>
>      However, a statement like:
>
>      "For this reason, when IPv4 traffic is vanishingly small (e.g. less than 1%), it would be better to switch to the IPv6-only stage."
>
>      seems to be trivial.
>
>      Can we state something stronger?
>
>      For example:
>
>      "For this reason, when IPv6 increases to a certain limit (e.g. more than 90%), it would be better to switch to the IPv6-only stage."
>
>      Rationale:
>      - Introducing an IPv4aaS technology has its costs, but the selling of
>      the lions share of the public IPv4 addresses brings in more money.
>      - The maintenance cost of the IPv4aaS solution is less than that of a
>      complete IPv4 network.
>
>      I do not state that it is true, I just ask, if it can be true. Because
>      if it is so, then it could be a better guidance.
>
>      Gábor
>
>      28/03/2021 20:47 keltezéssel, Brian E Carpenter írta:
>      > On 28-Mar-21 21:25, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>      >> Yes and not … IPv6 in IPv4 (6in4, proto41, etc.) … 6over4 is another protocol.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> Agree, right thing is to use IPv6-only and IPv4aaS, I was just saying that Free was the initiation of 6RD and they were using that. I’m not saying they still use the same or they should keep using the same.
>      > But please consider that if an operator is already supporting its customers using classical dual stack or a solid solution like 6rd, there may be no good reason to change for the next ten years or more. Dual stack has no time limit.
>      >
>      > I think this statement in the draft:
>      > "For this reason, when IPv6 increases to a certain limit,
>      > it would be better to switch to the IPv6-only stage."
>      > is too vague to be useful. Switching costs might be very high, including loss of customers. In fact, the criterion for switching might be as simple as "when IPv4 traffic is vanishingly small."
>      >
>      >     Brian
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> Regards,
>      >>
>      >> Jordi
>      >>
>      >> @jordipalet
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> El 28/3/21 9:14, "v6ops en nombre de [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> 6rd is a mode of IPv6 over IPv4, it is opposite to the concept of "IPv4 as a Service" of IPv6-only, so it should be replaced to make IPv6 as a univeral and underlying network protocol gradually.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> Regards
>      >>
>      >> Chongfeng
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>      *From:* JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <mailto:jordi.palet=[e-mail]>
>      >>
>      >>      *Date:* 2021-03-25 17:15
>      >>
>      >>      *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      >>
>      >>      *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment
>      >>
>      >>      Free was using 6RD initially, not sure if they turned into dual-stack, may be with IPv4 via CGN.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>      Regards,
>      >>
>      >>      Jordi
>      >>
>      >>      @jordipalet
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>      El 24/3/21 17:23, "v6ops en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          Le 24/03/2021 à 16:59, Gabor LENCSE a écrit :
>      >>
>      >>          > Dear Alex,
>      >>
>      >>          >
>      >>
>      >>          > On 3/24/2021 4:12 PM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: [...]
>      >>
>      >>          >> Does IPv6 mandate the use of DNS64 and NAT64?
>      >>
>      >>          >
>      >>
>      >>          > Of course, not. :)
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          So I agree with you about that.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          > There are several IPv4 as a Services solutions exist. We have
>      >>
>      >>          > covered the five most prominent ones 464XLAT, DS-Lite, MAP-E, MAP-T
>      >>
>      >>          > and lw4o6 in our I-D:
>      >>
>      >>          > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-06
>      >>
>      >>          > > Your ISP is likely using one of them.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          For clarification - my ISP is called 'Free' (it has freedom features).
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          They offer me paid IPv4 and IPv6 native access at home on ADSL.  It's
>      >>
>      >>          one publicly routable IPv4 address and an IPv6 /56 prefix globally
>      >>
>      >>          routable prefix (a 'GUP' if I can say so, not a GUA'(ddress)).
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          Up to now, looking through the configuration interface of my freebox at
>      >>
>      >>          home I could not see the options that you mention (464XLAT, DSLITE,
>      >>
>      >>          MAP-E, MAP-T, lw4o6).  One might say that they are there invisible, but
>      >>
>      >>          I doubt that, I need a proof of it.  How can I check for presence of
>      >>
>      >>          options 464XLAT, DSLITE, MAP-E, MAP-T or lw4o6?
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          The problems that appear when I try to browse IPv6 sites that absolutely
>      >>
>      >>          need IPv4 might be because I turned off the IPv4 stack on my computer's
>      >>
>      >>          interface (Windows Properties on the Interface, check off IPv4).  This
>      >>
>      >>          operation (turning off IPv4 in a computer) is possible only on Windows,
>      >>
>      >>          not on linux, AFAIR.  One cant do 'rmmod ipv4' in linux.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          That also explains the fact that installing IPv4-IPv6 translation boxes
>      >>
>      >>          (NAT64, 464LAT, etc.) in a network is not sufficient to access IPv4
>      >>
>      >>          sites from an IPv6-only computer.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          In order to access IPv4 sites from IPv6-only computers one also needs
>      >>
>      >>          the IPv4 stack to work ok on that computer and, moreover, it needs some
>      >>
>      >>          times software features in the Client that support the 64:: notation of
>      >>
>      >>          IPv6 addresses.  For example, thunderbird (a very modern MUA) does not
>      >>
>      >>          understand it and gets confused by it.  It takes it for an fqdn, and
>      >>
>      >>          does not even try to connect the translation boxes.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          This means that if one wants to migrate more to IPv6 then one has to
>      >>
>      >>          think about the NAT64 and 464XLAT concepts more outside of the cellular
>      >>
>      >>          network concept.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          And yes, I agree with you, NAT64 and 464XLAT are good tools to
>      >>
>      >>          migrate.  In particular, if one is on a smartphone or other computer
>      >>
>      >>          using an OS that cant turn off their IPv4 stacks.
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          Alex
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>          >
>      >>
>      >>          > Best regards,
>      >>
>      >>          >
>      >>
>      >>          > Gábor
>      >>
>      >>          >
>      >>
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>      >>
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>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
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