Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability-01.txt
"Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Tue, 28 July 2015 17:17 UTC
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko <ayourtch@gmail.com>, Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability-01.txt
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:17:18 +0000
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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability-01.txt
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Hi, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew ?? Yourtchenko > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:03 AM > To: Gert Doering > Cc: IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-addr-availability-01.txt > > On 7/28/15, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 03:58:04PM +0200, Andrew ???? Yourtchenko wrote: > >> I did not look at it as a problem given that every mobile phone on > >> IPv6 will already get a /64 per host, and the number of mobile phones > >> is dramatically bigger than the number of fixed installations. > > > > Bigger than then number of L2 *segments*, undoubtly. > > > > But no way bigger than "the number of devices that could attach to > > a L2 link" - as all these mobile phone also has wifi, so you have way > > more devices that attach to "shared links". > > I agree on the principle, though in reality it's even more complicated > since one device can attach to more than one link, etc. - so I think > it's actually even worse. > > > > > Network structure is also way different - in mobile, all devices attach > > to some sort of aggregation router (via 3G PDP tunnels etc) - while > > in "classic" networking, you have a multitude of independent segments > > that do not normally have aggregation infrastructure or provisioning > > available. Prefix mobility in a typical enterprise networks (where > > you'd have enough devices in a L2 segment to start think about scaling) > > isn't really there. > > > > Agreed. > > > >> But I pulled that assumption more or less out of my thumb, based on > >> observed anecdata, so would be happy to be proven wrong. > >> > >> If we say we want to absolutely avoid NAT, then something has to give, > >> and I don't know which tradeoff is a better one, both can be argued > >> for and against. I think we might need both. > > > > If you want my opinion, I think DHCPv6-PD to single hosts (= not something > > that does tethering) is not a reasonable approach. > > My line of logic was that DHCPv6-PD with a /128 prefix is not much > different from IA_NA. It is different, because unlike IA_NA a delegated prefix (even a /128) is not to be assigned to the link on which the delegation was coordinated. Also, the /128 is carried in the routing system, and may not match any on-link prefixes at all. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > >From there it is trivial to say "no, thou shalt not do /128, use > something shorter", and have the luxury to not define what is the > value of "shorter" is because it's just a prefix length, and we can > change per-situation. > > Going from one IA_NA to 10 IA_NA to 30 IA_NA is much harder, so we > will be forced to freeze on the "right" value. > > > > > If something does tethering, you need to decide what you're talking about, > > "enterprise-ish", "mobile" or "homenet". In mobile, DHCPv6-PD, or just > > sharing the PDP /64. In homenet, HNCP or DHCPv6-PD. In the enterprise? > > No idea what can be implemented with the typical constraints on > > trackability, security, etc. (like: if the device attaches to *this* > > network, it's permitted to go *there* by IP ACLs - whether or not this > > is a reasonable approach in itself anymore stands to be debated, but it > > will be with us for a long time). > > I think you pointed the crux of the issue here: the enterprise network. > > An enterprise does not want one uncontrolled device behind another > uncontrolled device, so realistically it will run IA_NA. And because > it will want the cheapest possible hardware to provide the function, > it will try to minimize the number of IA_NAs per host. > > And unless the hosts will crash and burn if they can not get X IA_NAs > upfront (they won't), this number will go down to a number providing > the most important 90% of functionality. > The remaining 10% will have to adapt. > > --a > > > > > > Gert Doering > > -- NetMaster > > -- > > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-colitti-v6ops-host-… Alexandru Petrescu