Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop
Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> Fri, 26 October 2012 01:53 UTC
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References: <201210161245.q9GCj0i26478@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65E0DEDF3A2@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <507DA6A3.20807@inex.ie> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65E0DEDF3C3@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <507DAB13.2010704@inex.ie> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65E0DEDF3CE@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <507DDF8A.9010607@inex.ie> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65E0DEDF5AB@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <BB219517-B488-4777-AE9C-35C57BE91263@kumari.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1210171337470.7337@shell4.bayarea.net> <AC530E99-4054-4B0A-9B5C-30F9EF4A530C@kumari.net> <20121018223121.28B2C2A0041D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <50812F87.5000107@inex.ie> <E1829B60731D1740BB7A0626B4FAF0A65E0DF5C66F@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5085319B.60707@inex.ie> <CAKD1Yr2qDsM6cCPapRmKuWw7SG-cuMd9PuiBD7ineqj7Bp4+Xw@mail.gmail.com> <8C4093E0-4031-4057-9B96-3738A5A48D2D@merike.com> <1351154487.78754.YahooMailNeo@web32504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:53:26 +0900
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1xDC7BefRyaHHKfw9THRkyQWwHS5P05_uWTOV539uS2w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
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Cc: V6 Ops <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop
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On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>wrote: > I think there should be advice. If the IETF has seen fit to > make fragmentation a capability of IPv6, then I think that is inherently > saying > that the IETF strongly suggests if not requires forwarding rather than > dropping of fragments for successful IPv6 operation. This seems to me to > be an RFC2775 Internet Transparency issue. > > Alternatively, if fragments are more trouble than they're worth, > they should be deprecated. > I agree that there should be advice, but unfortunately, I don't see a way to do that. For example, I personally think that fragments are more trouble than they're worth, they don't work in today's Internet (IPv4 *or* IPv6), create security issues (see e.g., Fernando's issues with fragmented RAs, plus an history of security issues in fragment-handling code) and that applications are much better off implementing their own fragmentation above UDP or whatever else they may use. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem likely that this working group will reach consensus on such a recommendation. On the other hand, giving the opposite advice, and saying "fragmentation is required and fragments MUST always be allowed" is out of touch with reality, because current implementations and network designs are not capable of doing this, and is therefore useless because operators can't do what implementations are not capable of. I doubt we'll reach consensus on such a recommendation either. As always, the danger in trying to reach consensus on a controversial topic is that of endlessly discussing the issue, which makes it impossible to make a useful contribution to it. The way I see it, if we can't reach consensus, it's better to punt entirely and at least issue a statement about the issues. At least we will have done something useful. If we get deadlocked forever in trying to decide what the right thing to do is, we will get nothing useful done at all. > It seems to me that developing an application that may be used over > the Internet involves developing for the worst case, not the best. If a > small > but significant enough portion of sites on the Internet drop fragments, > then applications will be developed to avoid using fragments. Once > applications avoid using fragments to suit some sites on the Internet, then > all sites on the Internet may as well drop them, because they've been > rendered useless. > I agree. But on the other hand, the data presented in this draft shows clearly that what you describe ("a small but significant enough portion of sites on the Internet drop fragments") is true today (actually, it's not even "small"). So fragments have already been rendered useless in the general case. But some of the reactions to the draft were, "That's incorrect and it will break things. The operators filtering fragments likely don't know that what they're doing is bad, and once we explain that to them, they will fix it".
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- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop james woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop C. M. Heard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Tom Taylor
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Warren Kumari
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop C. M. Heard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Merike Kaeo
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- [v6ops] ODP: new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdr… Czerwonka Michał - Hurt TP
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop KK Chittimaneni
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Havard Eidnes
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Havard Eidnes
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
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- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Ole Trøan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop Joe Touch