Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 22 July 2015 13:02 UTC
Return-Path: <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA5E1B331E for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 06:02:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.983
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79gDz1sX01tb for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE0781B3312 for <v6ops@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id t6MD2hFn008711; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:02:43 +0200
Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id CD2F62028D7; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:06:18 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC842028F5; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:06:18 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([132.166.84.215]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id t6MD2gCX029020; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:02:43 +0200
To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
References: <201507071147.t67Bl13m009348@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <CAO42Z2x7mNFbB_w_+W+80pY+LeCAKXaOBXMmQvkcaMSWhwW60g@mail.gmail.com> <EF21B630-5D0A-415A-A93F-9058900CC80C@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2zAqMXhBZ2wa=q0wtHGhMpMWU9TSjfFyd2quiki9w0oSw@mail.gmail.com> <85CADAA2-8DF2-4A6B-812B-7A77081936F5@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2w3fOxGJHasKqYZRfGZ2u=7FnZBm+jgLtgDvfZ7HYW=iw@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2z+DwOin23HQTysrZ9dNP924+LQ-vOExmJc_xZUEB4yCQ@mail.gmail.com> <228248C6-94FE-4C9C-A875-F732EFDC6601@cisco.com> <55AD3B64.5070400@acm.org> <CAPi140P+kfpyQKzCRDA7bZQRowQx_YRcZYa85hHe64g4AvsVTg@mail.gmail.com> <C5901B99-F3A7-4DB0-8216-38D95EA89D6A@delong.com> <CAMugd_Xox_zYv6oftPdAZVZGz+FYZo+Dm-QRSSn4pMEj-x1XjA@mail.gmail.com> <55AF0964.1060006@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr2y7e3bK8oYorCBPfdBAiyEkY5JJLaE+ixGczQdDjSPuw@mail.gmail.com> <55AF878E.1090200@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr1xnKaYrFG4izZ4MbB1aRh89CGzTkc1ZjjryOgvdN0hQw@mail.gmail.com> <55AF889F.6080206@gmail.com> <CAFU7BAShd1qOhLi5aRhO31_WFHFXZyUdgMEAi4CGZ=t1cL49JA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AF9472.9010209@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:02:42 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAFU7BAShd1qOhLi5aRhO31_WFHFXZyUdgMEAi4CGZ=t1cL49JA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/mC2_hyfrSk37jTTXlNXJFhwGwmI>
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: v6ops discussion list <v6ops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/>
List-Post: <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:02:52 -0000
Le 22/07/2015 14:31, Jen Linkova a écrit : > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Alexandru Petrescu > <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> "... on Androids and iPhones"? >> >> But not on huawei E392. > > I'm not sure what the fact that huawei E392 is not affected by a > particular issue proves. > So far we know that > - there are platforms affected; > - there is one unaffected platform. I think we discuss here a smartphone world. Android and smartphones in general are great things that happened to Internet, but there is more to it: raspberry pis, and various other small yet non-smartphone platforms. Alex > > Therefore I believe it is perfectly find for the title to be 'Reducing > battery impact of Router Advertisements'. If a particular network and > its devices are not affected - good, the network administrators MAY > (or SHOULD?) ignore the draft and not apply the recommendations. > >> Le 22/07/2015 14:10, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit : >>> >>> I'm told the problem affects iPhones as well. >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alexandru Petrescu >>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> "Reducing battery impact of RAs on Androids"? >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Le 22/07/2015 12:22, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit : >>> >>> Thanks for all the feedback. We have posted a -01 addressing >>> some of the >>> feedback we got. The new version also contains a new >>> recommendation not >>> to send periodic RAs too frequently, so we have changed the title to >>> "Reducing battery impact of Router Advertisements". >>> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast-01 >>> >>> If there are no objections, we will upload this as a WG document >>> in the >>> next few days. >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Alejandro Acosta >>> <alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com >>> <mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com >>> <mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi There, >>> I also support this document, it's very positive to see >>> that this >>> algorithm will save energy. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Alejandro, >>> >>> El 7/21/2015 a las 6:11 PM, Nabil Benamar escribió: >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I support this document which is very informative, >>> useful and its >>> implementation will certainly reduce energy consumption >>> due to >>> excessive Multicast RA sent. The proposed algorithm >>> seems to be >>> suitable for this end ! >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Owen DeLong >>> <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com> >>> <mailto:owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>>> wrote: >>> >>> It seems to me that the following algorithm would be >>> relatively easy to implement >>> and provide reasonable network optimization… >>> >>> >>> On receipt of an RS: >>> >>> if(multicast_ra_time_remaining > 15 seconds) >>> { >>> Send_Unicast_ra >>> } >>> else >>> { >>> Send_Multicast_ra >>> reset_multicast_timer >>> } >>> >>> In this way, if the timing is reasonably close, you >>> multicast >>> a packet you were about to send >>> anyway, but if the timing isn’t close, you’re not >>> wasting >>> multicast bandwidth answering a single >>> node where nobody else cares. >>> >>> Overall, I’ve always thought that multicast >>> response to RS was >>> kind of silly. It’s probably most >>> harmful on WiFi. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 02:33 , Andrew Yourtchenko >>> <ayourtch@gmail.com <mailto:ayourtch@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:ayourtch@gmail.com <mailto:ayourtch@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On 7/20/15, Erik Nordmark >>> <<mailto:nordmark@acm.org >>> <mailto:nordmark@acm.org>>nordmark@acm.org >>> <mailto:nordmark@acm.org> >>> >>> <mailto:nordmark@acm.org >>> <mailto:nordmark@acm.org>>> wrote: >>> >> On 7/17/15 9:34 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: >>> >>>> So the next logical thing to do would be to >>> have the >>> router default to >>> >>>> unicast Router Advertisements, measure the rate of >>> received Router >>> >>>> Solicitations, and switch to multicast RA mode >>> past a certain >>> >>>> threshold to cover this sort of situation. >>> Once the >>> number of RSes >>> >>>> falls, it switches back to unicast RA mode. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> That would get rid of the configuration knob >>> proposed in >>> this ID, and >>> >>>> is behaviour that I think could be universal >>> for all link >>> types, >>> >>>> rather than just for the case of wireless ones >>> with >>> mobile devices. >>> >>> If it were me implementing it, I think I would >>> go about >>> this in a little >>> >>> different way, hopefully simpler. I would want >>> to send at >>> most one (e.g., >>> >>> either zero or one) RA per some interval (a >>> second?). In >>> the normal case, >>> >>> that is sent unicast. However, having sent a >>> unicast RA at >>> time t, if I >>> >>> now receive another RS before t+1, I send the >>> next one (at >>> time t+1) as a >>> >>> multicast. >>> >> >>> >> First of all I support this document as a WG >>> document. >>> >> >>> >> But in terms of implementation, isn't it simpler to >>> always(*) respond to >>> >> a RS with a unicast RA? >>> > >>> > Yes. I did not respond on-list yet - but from >>> operational >>> perspective >>> > "always send solRA unicast" / "always send solRA >>> multicast" >>> definitely >>> > wins in my book, and I'd avoid premature >>> optimizations (but >>> maybe we >>> > can say the implementers are explicitly free to >>> do their own >>> > optimizations if they see fit) >>> > >>> > That said, will be very interesting to hear data >>> from folks >>> who will >>> > run "all-unicast solRA", in real networks and >>> then compare >>> the effect >>> > of their proposal optimizations on their >>> real-world scenarios. >>> > >>> >> As background, the text in RFC4861 comes from >>> the old >>> concern that all >>> >> devices might boot at the same time when the >>> power is >>> re-established >>> >> after a building power failure; that doesn't >>> happen since >>> most devices >>> >> (laptops, smartphones, IoT devices) have >>> batteries today. >>> In that case >>> >> it might have made sense to sending fewer RA >>> messages by >>> using multicast. >>> >> >>> >> (*) the only case in RFC 4861 when I think a >>> multicast >>> response might be >>> >> considered is when the source IPv6 address in >>> the RS is the >>> unspecified >>> >> address. Further, an implementation which rate >>> limits >>> received RS >>> >> packets (e.g., CoPP in a router) might also want >>> to detect >>> when the rate >>> >> limit might have dropped RS packets and >>> multicast an RA in >>> that case. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I do wonder why implementations haven't already >>> changed to >>> send unicast >>> >> solicited RA, and whether it would make a >>> difference if we >>> have an >>> > >>> > TBH that's my concern as well. I think we should >>> tweak the >>> text in >>> > 4861 to encourage a bit more consideration on the >>> implementer's side. >>> > >>> >> informational document asking them to do this. >>> Alternatively we could >>> >> have a proposed standard which updates section >>> 6.2.6 to >>> change the "MAY >>> >> unicast" to a "SHOULD unicast". >>> > >>> > Yeah, I actually have had the different text >>> aimed for 6man, but >>> > Lorenzo's concern was 6man would say "there is no >>> protocol >>> update >>> > here, go away", so he rewrote it for v6ops. >>> > >>> > We should probably discuss this at the mic and >>> get the >>> opinion of the >>> > 6man chairs - if there is no outright "no" on this, a >>> normative doc >>> > would be a better way to convince the implementers ? >>> > >>> >> >>> >> FWIW the draft incorrectly refers to section >>> 6.2.4 instead >>> of 6.2.6. >>> > >>> > Nice catch, thanks! >>> > >>> > --a >>> > >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Erik >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> v6ops mailing list >>> >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> v6ops mailing list >>> >> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > v6ops mailing list >>> > v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org >>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > >
- [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-un… fred
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith