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[209.85.216.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1ff58f21723sm89455525ad.15.2024.08.06.09.22.53 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f53.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cfdafdb914so587453a91.2 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3b82:b0:2c9:81d3:65d5 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff945afb9mr15848621a91.24.1722961372528; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:22:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Daryll Swer Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 21:52:16 +0530 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009254e1061f063431" Message-ID-Hash: ZMH6ITKHXPW66EPQMJU4MIFKDTDPGEZ2 X-Message-ID-Hash: ZMH6ITKHXPW66EPQMJU4MIFKDTDPGEZ2 X-MailFrom: contact@daryllswer.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-v6ops.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: IPv6 Ops WG X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5Bv6ops=5D_Re=3A_=5BIPv6=5DRe=3A_Is_the_P_flag_even_necessary=3F_?= =?utf-8?q?M_flag_already_does_enough_=28Re=3A_Re=3A_A_detail_review_of_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-ietf-6man-pio-pflag-04=29?= List-Id: v6ops discussion list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009254e1061f063431 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted I did, am I missing something? This is a ia_pd for downstream routers, right? If yes, said routers can have multiple VLANs, for example, so wouldn't a default /60 work better? Another question: A lot of ISPs refuse BCOP-690 and opt for a prefix that changes every 6 hours or 24 etc. How does this handle dynamic prefixes gracefully? To the authors, I spotted a grammar mistake: Original: "Many ISP will assign a prefix larger *then* /64 to the CE Router" Should be: "Many ISP will assign a prefix larger *than* /64 to the CE Router" *--* Best Regards Daryll Swer Website: daryllswer.com On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 at 21:39, Ted Lemon wrote: > You should read the document, which explains why not /60. :) > > Short answer: /64 is less likely to waste prefixes and has no obvious > downside. > > Op di 6 aug 2024 om 12:04 schreef Daryll Swer > >> Why not: >> >> LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router MUST provision IA_PD prefixes with a >> prefix-length of *60* unless configured to different prefix-length by >> the user. >> >> Assuming, we want to force CPEs (in turn forcing ISPs) vendors to >> normalise BCOP-690 (/56 ia_pd minimum for home networks). >> >> *--* >> Best Regards >> Daryll Swer >> Website: daryllswer.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 at 21:04, Timothy Winters wrote: >> >>> Hi Ted, >>> >>> I almost made that modification and can't think of a great reason not t= o. >>> >>> OLD: >>> LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA prefixes >>> with a prefix-length of 64. >>> >>> New: >>> LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router MUST provision IA_PD prefixes with a >>> prefix-length of 64 unless configured to different prefix-length by the >>> user. >>> >>> ~Tim >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM Ted Lemon wr= ote: >>> >>>> Yes, much better. Thanks! >>>> >>>> Why SHOULD and not MUST? What is the case where they would not do thi= s? >>>> >>>> Op di 6 aug 2024 om 11:26 schreef Timothy Winters >>>> >>>>> Hi Ted, >>>>> >>>>> How about this: >>>>> >>>>> OLD: >>>>> LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA >>>>> prefixes with a prefix-length of 64. >>>>> >>>>> New: >>>>> LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD provision IA_PD prefixes with a >>>>> prefix-length of 64 unless configured to different prefix-length by t= he >>>>> user. >>>>> >>>>> I'll make this change in the next revision. >>>>> >>>>> ~Tim >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM Ted Lemon = wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What I=E2=80=99m saying is that the text is ambiguous because you do= n=E2=80=99t say >>>>>> what =E2=80=9Cby default=E2=80=9D means. I am one of the people who = wants to get rid of the >>>>>> hierarchical model. >>>>>> >>>>>> Op di 6 aug 2024 om 09:05 schreef Timothy Winters >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Ted, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Ted Lemon = wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:16=E2=80=AFAM Timothy Winters >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> v6ops has a draft for PD on the LAN to improve this situation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-lan-pd/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please feel free to send comments, we are about to do WGLC on it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey, Tim. I hadn't read the document in a while. I see this text i= n >>>>>>>> the last requirement: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA prefixes >>>>>>>> with a prefix-length of 64. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read this as "if the DHCP client doesn't specify a narrower >>>>>>>> prefix, the CE router SHOULD .. 64" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is that what you intended? If not, I think you need to say more. I= f >>>>>>>> that is what you intended, this won't work, because if we stack CE= routers, >>>>>>>> I expect every CE router to ask for a /48, rather than not specify= ing, and >>>>>>>> that would mean that we'd always delegate the narrowest remaining = subset of >>>>>>>> the outer CE router's delegation to the first inner router that ma= kes a >>>>>>>> request. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's what the working group wanted. The original version of this >>>>>>> document had more text about how to support hierarchical or flat mo= dels. >>>>>>> After a round or two discussion what came out of that was routers b= ehind a >>>>>>> CE Router are no longer a CE Router as they aren't at the customer = edge. >>>>>>> The draft reflects that general consensus, that leans towards depl= oying a >>>>>>> flat model as opposed to hierarchical, which is where the /64 lengt= h >>>>>>> derives from. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it may be time for another document to specify what to do i= f >>>>>>> you're a Internal Router (but not SNAC). We could include all the = flat >>>>>>> model text for becoming a DHCP Relay and giving out IA_PD with /64 = from the >>>>>>> customer edge. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> v6ops mailing list -- v6ops@ietf.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to v6ops-leave@ietf.org >>> >> --0000000000009254e1061f063431 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted

I did, am I missin= g something? This is a ia_pd for downstream routers, right? If yes, said ro= uters can have multiple VLANs, for example, so wouldn't a default /60 w= ork better?

Another question:
A lot of I= SPs refuse BCOP-690 and opt for a prefix that changes every 6 hours or 24 e= tc. How does this handle dynamic prefixes gracefully?

To the authors, I spotted a grammar mistake:
Original:
"Many I= SP will assign a prefix larger then /64=C2=A0to the CE Router"<= /div>

Should be:
"Many ISP will assign a prefix = larger than /64=C2=A0to the CE Router"

--
Best Regards
Daryll Swer
= Website: daryllswer.com


=3D""
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 at 21:39, Ted L= emon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote= :
You should read the document, which explains why not /60. :)

Short answer: /64 is less likely t= o waste prefixes and has no obvious downside.=C2=A0

Op di 6 aug 2024 om= 12:04 schreef Daryll Swer <contact@daryllswer.com>
Why not:=

LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router MUST provision IA_PD prefixes with a pref= ix-length of 60 unless configured to different prefix-length by the = user.

Assuming, we want to force CPEs (in turn forcing ISPs) vendors= to normalise BCOP-690 (/56 ia_pd minimum for home networks).

--
Best Regards
Daryll Swer

3D""
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 at 21:04= , Timothy Winters <t= im@qacafe.com> wrote:
Hi Ted,=C2=A0
I almost made that modification and can't think of a great= reason not to.

OLD:
LPD-8: The IPv= 6 CE Router SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA prefixes with a prefix-len= gth of 64.

New:
LPD-8: The=C2=A0IPv6 CE Router = MUST provision IA_PD prefixes with a prefix-length of 64 unless configured = to different prefix-length by the user.

~Tim=

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
<= /div>
Ye= s, much better. Thanks!

= Why SHOULD and not MUST?=C2=A0 What is the case where they would not do thi= s?

Op di 6 aug 2024 om 11:26 schreef Timothy Winters <tim@qacafe.com>
Hi Ted,<= /div>

How about this:

OLD:
LPD-8: The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA prefix= es with a prefix-length of 64.

New:
LPD-8: The= =C2=A0IPv6 CE Router SHOULD provision IA_PD prefixes with a prefix-length o= f 64 unless configured to different prefix-length by the user.
I'll make this change in the next revision.

=
~Tim

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM Ted Lemo= n <mellon@fugue.co= m> wrote:
What I=E2=80=99m saying is that the text is ambiguous be= cause you don=E2=80=99t say what =E2=80=9Cby default=E2=80=9D means. I am o= ne of the people who wants to get rid of the hierarchical model.=C2=A0

= Op di 6 aug 2024 om 09:05 schreef Timothy Winters <tim@qacafe.com>
Hi = Ted,

On Mon, Aug 5, = 2024 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On Mon, = Aug 5, 2024 at 11:16=E2=80=AFAM Timothy Winters <tim@qacafe.com> wrote:
v6ops has a draft for PD on the LAN to improve this situat= ion.


Plea= se feel free to send comments, we are about to do WGLC on it.

Hey, Tim. I hadn't read the document in = a while. I see this text in the last requirement:

The IPv6 CE Router= SHOULD by default provision IA_PD IA prefixes with a prefix-length of 64.<= /p>


I read this as "if the DHCP client doesn't specify a narr= ower prefix, the CE router SHOULD .. 64"

Is t= hat what you intended? If not, I think you need to say more. If that is wha= t you intended, this won't work, because if we stack CE routers, I expe= ct every CE router to ask for a /48, rather than not specifying, and that w= ould mean that we'd always delegate the narrowest remaining subset of t= he outer CE router's delegation to the first inner router that makes a = request.
That's what the working group wanted.=C2=A0 Th= e original version of this document had more text about how to support hier= archical or flat models.=C2=A0 After a round or two discussion what came ou= t of that was routers behind a CE Router are no longer a CE Router as they = aren't at the customer edge.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The draft reflects that genera= l consensus, that leans towards deploying a flat model as opposed to hierar= chical, which is where the /64 length derives from.

I think it may be time for another document to specify what to do if you&= #39;re a Internal Router (but not SNAC).=C2=A0 We could include all the fla= t model text for becoming a DHCP Relay and giving out IA_PD with /64 from t= he customer edge.
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list -- v= 6ops@ietf.org
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