Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yourtchenko-ra-dhcpv6-comparison-00.txt (fwd)
Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> Wed, 22 January 2014 18:58 UTC
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:58:15 +0000
From: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
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To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yourtchenko-ra-dhcpv6-comparison-00.txt (fwd)
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On 22/01/2014 17:48, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Because making IPv6 look like IPv4 in every way will inevitably mean that > we'll lose the advantages that IPv6 has over IPv4. I'm not talking about > "QoS" or "security", which were trumpeted as advantages of IPv6 ten years > ago. I'm talking about the real advantages, like network statelessness, the > freedom from on-link address scarcity, dynamic renumbering, etc. network statelessness may be good on your network, but it's not a good thing on my networks; apparently not Matt's either. Nor is it good for the people who've been pushing for and who now use stateful address configuration on their v6 networks. 2^64 on-link addresses per configured subnet opens up a crippling DoS vector with neighbor cache exhaustion, and should be considered an danger to functional network operation in many production situations. dynamic renumbering is a fantasy in many configuration scenarios. > At the end of the day, it's a trade-off. Do you make IPv6 look more > like IPv4, in the hope that it will get deployed more quickly? Or do we > stick to the design and accept some temporary migration pain for a > better end result? I'm for the latter, because this thing's going to be > with us for thirty years - and because making it IPv6 more like IPv4 > will *not* get IPv6 deployed faster, because that's a business decision, > not a technical decision. You've inadvertently put your finger on exactly the problem. Each network is different and requires different configuration to operate optimally. Your and other peoples' continuing efforts to block standardisation of a DHCPv6 routing option using any means possible - endless arguments and continuously shouting everyone down - do nothing to hide the reality that your viewpoint of how ipv6 ought to operate is not the only valid viewpoint out there. Going back to what you said above, a "better end result" for your network is not necessarily the same as for my network. I do not want to stop you from using RAs and SLAAC if that's what works well for you. You are the best judge to know what's good for your networks and I respect that. Conversely, I ask you to accept that there are many people - including me - who hold a considered viewpoint that routing information auto- configuration using DHCPv6 would be a good fit for our requirements and that you are not the best judge of what is or is not appropriate for our networks. Nick > > Many have said, "Where's the harm? So let's define standards to put routing > in DHCP. There's no harm in making the semantics compatible with IPv4, as > long as we maintain the routing in RA compatibility as well". I think these > people are either underestimating the network effect or the realities of > operations, "modern corporate IT staffing" (as Owen puts it), and the code > and process bugs that invariably crop up when you try to do something a > little different. Using the IPv4-lookalike way will always be the path of > least resistance, and at the end, there will only be one way to do > communicate configuration parameters to general-purpose hosts. Everything > else is simply too operationally expensive. > > In your specific case, I'd argue that - as Ole has said - what you want to > do should be 100% solved - and with better load-sharing properties than > your current IPv4 design - by simply having the hosts ECMP to the four > routers. If your hosts don't support that, then I would see that as an > excellent use of your "as a multibillion dollar company, we can afford to > pay for the features we need" cachet. > > Regards, > Lorenzo > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >
- [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yourtc… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Matthew Petach
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Matthew Petach
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Matthew Petach
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Matthew Petach
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Randy Bush
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv6's … Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Matthew Petach
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] Enterprises won't deploy IPv6 for IPv… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-yo… Nick Hilliard