Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity? (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> Fri, 22 February 2019 17:11 UTC
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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:11:09 -0800
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: "Manfredi (US), Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity? (Re: A common problem with SLAAC in "renumbering" scenarios)
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On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:35 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 10:04, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 2:46 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 08:53, Manfredi (US), Albert E > > > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > So I think there's commonly a big different between works and works > > > well. NAT may work, however compared to stateless IPv6 (and IPv4) > > > forwarding, it doesn't work anywhere as near as well. > > > > > Mark, > > > > I agreee with that with one exception. I believe that NAT/IPv4 can > > offer better privacy in addressing than IPv6 given current addess > > allocation methods. > > > > So I don't think addressing privacy via NAT is really all that > valuable if there are many other ways, some quite easy, to uniquely > identify an anonymity desiring end-point/end-user, whose effectiveness > aren't impacted at all by NAT. > > For example, this website is coming over IPv4 for me, and I'm using > IPv4+NAPT. If IPv4+NAPT was that effective at anonymity, I shouldn't > be able to tracked. > > https://amiunique.org/ > > Yet it is saying I can be with both Chrome and Firefox on Fedora 29 in > Incognito/Private windows mode on this host. It says the same about my > Android 9 phone with Chrome in Incognito mode. > > Going into the detail of how, they don't seem to be using IP address > at all for any identification, it is all browser attributes. > > We have IPv6 temporary addresses, which makes using addresses harder > to use to identify a node. I think that is a lot better than nothing. Mark, Yes, but by that same rationale a simple substitution cipher is better than nothing in cryptography! What pretty much any conversation about privacy in addressing seems to lacking is a quantitative description of privacy and any empiracal data on the impact that privacy mechanisms, like those defined in RFC4941, have had. You might say it "makes using addresses harder to use to identify a node". But then the obvious question is _how_ much harder? Is this really protecting anyone's privacy, or it is just a minor inconvenience to attackers and only giving users a false sense of security? The irony is that CGN seems to have the best supporting evidence for being a mechanism that impacts privacy, but it was never even intended to be a privacy mechanism. The evidence is in the form of concerns form law enforcement that the privacy side effect is too strong and impedes their investigations (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/18/europol_cgnat/). So I don't think "Is addressing privacy via NAT really achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity?" is the right question. The right question to ask is "Is addressing privacy via any IETF defined mechanism achieving much compared to a privacy goal of anonymity?" Tom > However, I don't see how IPv6 NAT would improve it much, and it > introduces the other drawbacks of NAT. > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > Regards, > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bert > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
- [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renumberi… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tassos Chatzithomaoglou
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Sander Steffann
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… j h woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with SLA… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Kristian McColm
- [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really achi… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] NAT debate (Re: A common problem with… Mark Smith
- [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A common p… Lencse Gábor
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] 464XLAT -- Re: NAT debate (Re: A comm… Ca By
- [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A commo… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Christian Huitema
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Timothy Winters
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Tom Herbert
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Stability and Resilience (was Re: A c… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lee Howard
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] Is addressing privacy via NAT really … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… Richard Patterson
- Re: [v6ops] A common problem with SLAAC in "renum… 神明達哉