Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition solutions -- NAT64/DNS64 remains insufficient
James Woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com> Thu, 26 March 2015 22:23 UTC
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 17:23:25 -0500
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From: James Woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com>
To: IPv6 Ops WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition solutions -- NAT64/DNS64 remains insufficient
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:29 AM, James Woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com> wrote: > > Yes, I recognize that entirely shifting the burden of supporting IPv4 onto >> the operating system developers, into the unforeseeable future, while the >> network operators get a clean transition to IPv6-only, can seem like a >> "solution" from certain bell-shaped perspectives, but there is still a >> world outside that perspective where some of us are trying to make a living. >> > > As someone who does maintain a 464xlat implementation for the purposes of > supporting IPv4, I don't think it's an unreasonable burden. > > It's true that if we have compatibility solutions in place, we might never > completely get rid of IPv4 until all IPv4-only apps are obsolete. But if > the cost of maintaining such solutions is low, what's the harm? > I sympathize with your position, Lorenzo, I really do. Nevertheless, I also hope that Apple continues to resist the pressure it must be experiencing today to bring 464XLAT to iOS and OS X. Let me explain why. There is only one thing applying any pressure of any kind to developers currently using IPv4 literals in their application protocols: that their applications FAIL on Apple operating systems when those devices connect to IPv6-only+NAT64 networks. If Apple caves on this, as every other major vendor of mobile device operating systems has already caved, then developers will continue to rely on the viability of IPv4 literals as a protocol element for the foreseeable future. Those applications that do so will continue shipping with a reliance on 464XLAT for years to come, and they will continue to be used in critical processes for years after that when they are no longer under maintenance. There are people today scrubbing web pages and application protocols of their IPv4 literals, and they are mainly motivated to continue doing this by the need to deal with the fact that 464XLAT isn't universally deployed on all the major mobile platforms yet. Apple is the last noteworthy holdout. Publishing a BCP that entails telling developers that IPv4 literals are legitimate for use as application protocol elements is unnecessary and counter-productive to the interests of the IETF in promoting adoption of IPv6. Instead it would communicate to developers that IETF is capitulating on IPv6, that it doesn't really believe in it anymore, and application developers should feel safe ignoring it for the foreseeable future. -- james woodyatt <jhw@nestlabs.com> Nest Labs, Communications Engineering
- [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transition… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Kossut Tomasz - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ray Hunter
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Czerwonka Michał 1 - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Czerwonka Michał 1 - Hurt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Keith Moore
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Keith Moore
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Xing Li
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… George, Wes
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Metzler, Dan J
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] The need for local-ipv4 socket transi… James Woodyatt