Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations - work or abandon?
Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> Sun, 15 November 2015 18:47 UTC
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations - work or abandon?
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On 11/13/2015 08:11 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Fernando Gont > <fgont@si6networks.com <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote: > >> The IP addresses and port numbers could be signaled out of band >> using another mechanism (NFC, bluetooth, email, smoke signals, >> well-known ports, whatever). > > And for that signaling you need.... a third party. > > Not for NFC, bluetooth, smoke signals, or well-known ports you > don't. And even if you do need a third party, there's a huge > difference between a third party that relays / snoops your traffic > vs. a third party that just puts the two parties in touch and then > disappears from the equation. Could you please elaborate how this would work: 1. A is behind a diode firewall 2. B is behind a diode firewall 3. A initiates a TCP connection with B. >> As noted, shortcuts in the current in the current architecture should >> not be interpreted as design principles.. NATs happen to make this >> very evident. Don't shoot the messenger for this. > > And we come around to the previous argument. The situation is not > that we are shooting NAT for coming and telling us the architecture > is broken. The situation is that we are shooting NAT for breaking > it. I fully disagree. NAT can be the most evil device ever. But all this things we've being talking about have to do with an incomplete architecture that NAT is making evident rather than about a complete architecture that NAT is breaking. >> If a network has a policy of only allowing outgoing connections, then >> any workaround to do that is an attack on that policy. And >> making.that workaround more difficult can thus be seen as a feature. > > Such a policy is misguided Says who? It's the policy that is being enforced. Period. > because it ignores the reality that today > outgoing connections are just as dangerous as incoming ones, if not > more. I disagree. Your claim can be correct for an enterprise with BYOD. BUt it is certainly not true for virtually every home network where a number of devices are attached to it -- possibly un-updated, with bad defaults, etc. In any case it's possible to DoS a device with a single packet, or worse, that you can root a device with a single packet (see one of the few openbsd remotely exploitable vulns, alas IPv6-based), a diode firewall would prevent such devices from being owned from the Internet. (Not to mention reflection attacks, etc.) This doesn't mean "yeah.. there couldn't be nothing evil inside", but is rather along the lines of the principle of "least privilege" applied in security -- "if I don't need something for ding what I need to do, then I get read of it"... whether that's superuser privileges, or connectivity privileges. Yes... in general, your ability to play with my network is at odds with my network's security. > We need a better reason to break the architecture than > misguided policies. The only references to architecture have been shortcomings (e.g., well-known ports) r not-so-clean app design such as FTP PORT -- that become evident with NATs. The rest is policy, not architecture. In case it's not clear: it's perfectly understandable why many of such things happened that way. What's not understandable is that we, 40 years later, don't learn from history and consider "design principles" things that are not. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
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- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Andrews
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- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… otroan
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Michael H Lambert
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Tim Chown
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Conrad
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Howard, Lee
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… sthaug
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Mark Andrews
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… David Farmer
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Octavio Alvarez
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Joe Touch
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] PI heresy [draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Octavio Alvarez
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommenda… Owen DeLong