Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call- "harmfully broad"?
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330049091C2@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAKD1Yr2yDnwPDHgsq3Wi3UOzKY7KrqSpBMbBttJ5qAAu6ijOAw@mail.gmail.com> <54DDF02C.8020903@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61130F231B4@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B21303DEA706@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> <CAKD1Yr0j23E-UMdL2Ujv5nrpbbUa9rgPE_6AhbHLn0JeOZ9Edg@mail.gmail.com> <355A1FFC-9F92-4D61-985D-4C5FC6EC69EC@eircom.net> <CAKD1Yr2PX81czTwUZzaMtgPc9vhvP=oL++UZByGzxmkq_B=DMA@mail.gmail.com> <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B21303E07EE2@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> <CAKD1Yr0Zkic6-ydV-u==xjDGdY9GYWb8KwciBPnfk8zO=6FFqQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr0qS-Vg-XB7mNWwephkkL5rCG+NJO7uDJg_4W3LT+Q9Ew@mail.gmail.com> <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B21303E088AE@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> <CAKD1Yr00Ri8hQMsJcSqMAw+g_T-mU8GxG1G8rTHgo=McaKdW8Q@mail.gmail.com> <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B21303E08E9C@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300490D690@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:08:18 -0800
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From: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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Cc: "IPv6 Ops WG (v6ops@ietf.org)" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call- "harmfully broad"?
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Authors, I know you said the 3gpp is not interested in this work, what about GSMA ? They write profiles for mobile networks , right? CB On Wednesday, February 18, 2015, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote: > Hi Nick, > > > > I fully agree. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > *De :* v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','v6ops-bounces@ietf.org');>] *De la part de* > Heatley, Nick > *Envoyé :* mercredi 18 février 2015 10:35 > *À :* Lorenzo Colitti > *Cc :* IPv6 Ops WG (v6ops@ietf.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','v6ops@ietf.org');>) > *Objet :* Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call- > "harmfully broad"? > > > > Yes, I agree with you, that is a sensible approach. > > Working with each vendor in turn. > > (You know each vendor who claims IPv6 readiness for their terminal, will > never say whether the device will work on the operators IPv6 network. > > So it needs to be collaborative.) > > > > So all this document is doing is setting a collective roadmap, rather than > expect vendors to do their own thing. Given we agree on the above, this is > not harmful. > > > > I think the real disagreement comes from your opinion that this is not > IETF. > > (By the way, mobile operators have had discussions with the sister org of > the Internet Society about what would help mobile operators introduce IPv6. > > One of the major major themes has been terminals.) > > > > > > *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lorenzo@google.com');>] > *Sent:* 18 February 2015 07:26 > *To:* Heatley, Nick > *Cc:* Ross Chandler; IPv6 Ops WG (v6ops@ietf.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','v6ops@ietf.org');>) > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call- > "harmfully broad"? > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Heatley, Nick <nick.heatley@ee.co.uk > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nick.heatley@ee.co.uk');>> wrote: > > I can see why you argue for lowest common denominator of v6 requirements. > > I think your stance that this can work across the board is “harmfully > restrictive”. > > The other approach is understanding the differences and trying to set a > slightly higher bar that highlights conditional requirements of the > collective; what you call “harmfully broad”. > > > > What I'm saying is that if your goal is IPv6 deployment in a reasonable > timeframe, then the right strategy is *not* to make a list of all the > features under the sun, wait until they have all been implemented, and > deploy them. A better strategy is to start from the features that are > required, test and deploy those, and then iterate. As the industry evolves > and IPv6 becomes more common, IPv6 features will become higher priority for > vendors and they will get implemented. > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Heatley, Nick <nick.heatley@ee.co.uk > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nick.heatley@ee.co.uk');>> wrote: > > This is the game of chicken approach, I have no doubt it works, but is it > inclusive to all mobile operators? > > For me, it has some limitations: > > - The operator must have top down backing for a terminal policy > of “IPv6 or you are out” (now that is a wildcard condition in itself); it > may compromise relationships in a valuable ecosystem > > - Where the operator has high major market power helps. Where > markets have a number of players ready to play the IPv6 game, there is an > advantage. Otherwise the operator is very exposed to divide and conquer > > - Currently it tends to play out as a the simplest set of > requirements. Which also means simplest set of network capabilities. > Sometimes these simplest set of network capabilities are at odds with the > business priorities of the operator (clear examples are: APN strategy, > tethering approach, roaming approach, subsidised handset vs “SIM-only”) > > (Not having an IPv6 capable network is a myth you are promoting to > discredit operator views, it is a red herring – any operator specifying * > *any** IPv6 requirements will very quickly need this capability to > validate terminals whatever the path they choose.) > > > > I can see why you argue for lowest common denominator of v6 requirements. > > I think your stance that this can work across the board is “harmfully > restrictive”. > > The other approach is understanding the differences and trying to set a > slightly higher bar that highlights conditional requirements of the > collective; what you call “harmfully broad”. > > > > > > *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lorenzo@google.com');>] > *Sent:* 17 February 2015 02:41 > *To:* Heatley, Nick > *Cc:* Ross Chandler; IPv6 Ops WG (v6ops@ietf.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','v6ops@ietf.org');>) > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile last call- > "harmfully broad"? > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lorenzo@google.com');>> wrote: > > Yes. Make IPv6* (see below) a requirement for carrier-branded devices, and > give the OEMs a credible signal that from date X onwards, you *will* fail > TA on every device that doesn't implement IPv6, and you *will not* waive > the requirement. That's what Verizon and T-Mobile did, and it worked for > them. > > > > Also: if you think that this strategy is not feasible because you do not > have an IPv6 network yet, then yes, that's true - you can't make IPv6 a > device requirement until you have an IPv6 network. > > > > But I think the key point here is that apart from the lack of 464xlat on > iOS, the mobile operating systems are a lot more ready for IPv6 than you > might think they are. Once the network is complete, I think turning on IPv6 > in the devices does work. Orange Poland, Telenor, and SK Telecom should be > able to confirm. > > NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER > This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended for the above-named > person(s). If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender > immediately, delete this email from your system and do not disclose or use > for any purpose. > > We may monitor all incoming and outgoing emails in line with current > legislation. We have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments > are free from any virus, but it remains your responsibility to ensure that > viruses do not adversely affect you. > > EE Limited > Registered in England and Wales > Company Registered Number: 02382161 > Registered Office Address: Trident Place, Mosquito Way, Hatfield, > Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW > > > > > > NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER > This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended for the above-named > person(s). If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender > immediately, delete this email from your system and do not disclose or use > for any purpose. > > We may monitor all incoming and outgoing emails in line with current > legislation. We have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments > are free from any virus, but it remains your responsibility to ensure that > viruses do not adversely affect you. > > EE Limited > Registered in England and Wales > Company Registered Number: 02382161 > Registered Office Address: Trident Place, Mosquito Way, Hatfield, > Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW > > >
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Keith Moore
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… James Woodyatt
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ross Chandler
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Ca By
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… david.binet
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Heatley, Nick
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Dave Michaud
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Dave Michaud
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti
- [v6ops] accountability vs responsibility [draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… joel jaeggli
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profil… Lorenzo Colitti