Re: [v6ops] dhcpv6-pd on cellular, IoT router

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]>]

Believe me, before buying anything I've asked at least to 10-12 of the possible suppliers.

I'm never trusting the published specs I ask for specific questions, including if they are the real manufacturer or they can pass questions to the real one.

I ask them very detailed specs. I will not ask for DHCP, I will use the RFC if necessary.

 

El 26/3/21 18:00, "v6ops en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:



    Le 26/03/2021 à 17:44, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
    > How do you do in any other shop? Ask them before buying!

    All descriptions of these small devices dont go into such detail about
    their devices.  If some IoT device says 'DHCP' then it's for sure IPv4;
    if it says 'IPv6' then it's for sure SLAAC.  If it ever says 'DHCPv6' it
    means it is for Ethernet.  If it's DHCPv6-PD for something else than
    Ethernet then it's for ADSL.  If it is DHCPv6-PD on 4G then there is a
    little star that says that only some operator only in some country on
    some freq band; but they dont say which :-)

    It's an endless story.

    If there were a product that said 'DHCPv6-PD on 4G  with operator Orange
    in France' then I buy it instantly.

    > I did in Alibaba and Aliexpress, several times, for some other 
    > technical questions and it worked and I got the right product. You 
    > many need to ask to several vendors until you find the right one,
    > but it works.> As a recent example, I designed my own LFP solar
    > battery with 90 x 3,2V 280Ah cells, and sent the Chinese providers a
    > PDF with my own design of the copper laminated busbars and plastic
    > covers, etc., and everything worked fine.

    Maybe you had just one or two manufacturers in front of you.  Maybe you
    had the human who actually made these panels.  An on-purpose 'turnkey'
    design.

    But when you look at a mass-produced product like an IoT router, there
    are so many manufacturers involved :-)

    Alex

    > 
    > Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > El 26/3/21 17:36, "v6ops en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu" 
    > <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> 
    > escribió:
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > Le 26/03/2021 à 17:31, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
    >> Alibaba/Aliexpress is your friend.
    >> 
    >> You have many models from 10 to 100's of USD which typically run 
    >> OpenWRT, and you can do that with them,
    > 
    > I can try but how to be sure they dont block DHCPv6 when I know so 
    > many other things I tried with Balong and Qualcomm models block it?
    > 
    > I cant buy all offers on Alibaba either :-)
    > 
    > Alex
    > 
    > 
    > either with built-in SIM or external USB dongle.
    >> 
    >> 
    >> El 26/3/21 17:26, "v6ops en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu" 
    >> <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> 
    >> escribió:
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> Le 26/03/2021 à 17:14, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
    >>> 
    >>>> -> They are broken then - complain to the vendor,
    >>> 
    >>> How can I complain to a vendor of not implementing '64hare'
    >>> which is an INFORMATIONAL RFC?
    >>> 
    >>> Either make the RFC Stds Track or not try to put it on the list 
    >>> of absolute requirements for a device...
    >>> 
    >>> -> Vendors don't really care so much about if an RFC is class
    >>> "a" or "b" or "c". Money talks. Don't buy them.
    >> 
    >> I was _offered_ these devices and then bulk price for more.
    >> 
    >> One cant beat that.
    >> 
    >> That should be compared to the gratuitous 64share software but on a
    >> 1000Eur hardware smartphone package.
    >> 
    >> Compare it too to the price I'd have to may out of my own pocket to
    >> submit our own DHCPv6-PD client compiled from open source in order
    >> to get it a place in the store.  And even if I paid that, I think
    >> it would be refused by the store owner because of other non 
    >> technical reasons against DHCP.
    >> 
    >> This situation is far from desirable.
    >> 
    >> If there were a cheap IoT router on the market with root ssh and 
    >> not block DHCPv6 on 4G then I am all ears :-)  But there isnt :-( 
    >> So it's staled.
    >> 
    >> Alex
    >> 
    >>> 
    >>>>> It is not blocked by "hardware" but may be by baseband modem 
    >>>>> firmware.
    >>>> 
    >>>> 'is not' on one hand and 'may' on the other hand - I can only 
    >>>> agree with you, but there is something missing.
    >>>> 
    >>>> That is the situation right now.
    >>>> 
    >>>> -> IETF is not the place to resolve buggy implementations,
    >>>> only complaining to vendors will resolve it, and ultimately,
    >>>> finding alternative suppliers.
    >>> 
    >>> We will not resolve buggy implementations here.
    >>> 
    >>> We will continue to stale.
    >>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>>>> One example of this was, a few years ago, the contract 
    >>>>>> awarded to Telefónica for 53 millions of gas and 
    >>>>>> electricity meters in UK, worth 1.5 billion pounds in 15 
    >>>>>> years, using cellular and 6LOWPAN. If they have done it 
    >>>>>> with IPv4, they will have needed 34 million NATs,
    >>>>>> according to their own calculations.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> The IoT devices that I acquire on the market dont do
    >>>>> 6lowpan. There are indeed many 6lowpan devices but there are
    >>>>> also many other IoT devices that connect on 4G, have 
    >>>>> Bluetooth/WiFi/Ethernet/Galileo and yet dont do 6lowpan.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> -> Those devices don't deserve the right to be called IoT 
    >>>>> then. A real IoT devices must have IPv6 support.
    >>>> 
    >>>> Ah?  DO you mean that an IoT device on the market that does
    >>>> not do 6lowpan or does not do IPv6 can not be called IoT?
    >>>> 
    >>>> This might go very far, but should be considered.
    >>>> 
    >>>> -> From the perspective of IETF, technically we could document 
    >>>> it. However, the problem is more a marketing advise. Most of 
    >>>> the companies selling all kind of cheap sensors, just don't 
    >>>> care, they will keep calling "IoT" to any crap hardware, even 
    >>>> if is not IP enabled at all (I've seen RF-only sensors being 
    >>>> called IoT sensors ...).
    >>> 
    >>> Might be to say IoT sensors are just the RF-only devices.
    >>> 
    >>> But how about 'IoT Routers'?
    >>> 
    >>> We propose the definition of an 'IoT Router' to be this:
    >>>> IoT Router - a device of class IoT.  It has several wired and 
    >>>> wireless interfaces.  One wireless interface is of type 
    >>>> cellular, like 4G or 5G.  This cellular interface is egress. 
    >>>> The other interfaces are ingress.  There are at least two 
    >>>> ingress interfaces. There is at least one set of two
    >>>> interfaces that can not be bridged together, for example
    >>>> 802.11b and Bluetooth.  If all ingress interfaces in the IoT
    >>>> Router can be bridged, for example 802.11b and Ethernet, then
    >>>> there is at least one other router in the same local network as
    >>>> the IoT Router, that can not be bridged to this IoT Router.
    >>>> The IoT Router needs more than one /64 prefix.  An example of
    >>>> IoT Router is Sierra Wirelss mangOH Red, or Maestro Wireless
    >>>> E220.
    >>> 
    >>> -> I think and IoT router definition don't need to enforce any 
    >>> specific interface, because it depends on the scenario. However, 
    >>> it needs to enforce IPv6 support.
    >>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=telefonica+awarded+uk+meters
    >
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>> Now, if you want to make it more complex, and you really 
    >>>>>> need to keep IPv4 incoming connections, you can still 
    >>>>>> configure the NAT64 for that, either for specific ports or 
    >>>>>> addresses. However, as said, it doesn't make sense to use 
    >>>>>> IPv4 for new deployments of "anything".
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> If I _have_ to do NAT, then NAT44 is largely sufficient. 
    >>>>> There is no need for v4-v6 transition mechanisms (I mean not 
    >>>>> in these trials I consider).
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> -> It is utopic to believe that NAT44 will keep scaling ...
    >>>> 
    >>>> I can agree that in the long term NAT44 might not scale, but I 
    >>>> can also agree that NAT64 wouldnt scale either.
    >>>> 
    >>>> -> NAT64 scales if we continue "real" IPv6 deployment
    >>>> *because* it means that you use less and less NAT64
    >>>> translations, so less IPv4 addresses required on the NAT64
    >>>> Internet-facing interfaces. The nice think about 464XLAT is
    >>>> that you "drop" IPv4 in a natural way, just passing the time,
    >>>> nothing to be done. When you do IPv6-only deployments (with
    >>>> IPv4aaS) in ISPs, you suddenly see (at least in residential
    >>>> networks) 75%-85% of the traffic being IPv6-only end-to-end.
    >>> 
    >>> Hmmm, thinking abou tit.
    >>> 
    >>> Alex
    >>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> Yes, let us do IPv6, unless one calls IPv6 the
    >>>> IPv4+translation :-)
    >>>> 
    >>>> Alex
    >>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> ********************************************** IPv4 is over 
    >>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? 
    >>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be 
    >>>>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
    >>>>> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
    >>>>> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, 
    >>>>> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
    >>>>> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly 
    >>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you
    >>>>>  are not the intended recipient be aware that any
    >>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of
    >>>>> this information, even if partially, including attached
    >>>>> files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal
    >>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform
    >>>>> about this communication and delete it.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops
    >>>>> mailing list [e-mail] 
    >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >>>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing 
    >>>> list [e-mail] 
    >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> ********************************************** IPv4 is over
    >>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
    >>>> http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
    >>>> 
    >>>> This electronic message contains information which may be 
    >>>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be 
    >>>> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and 
    >>>> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, 
    >>>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even 
    >>>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited 
    >>>> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the 
    >>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, 
    >>>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even 
    >>>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
    >>>> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
    >>>> reply to the original sender to inform about this communication
    >>>> and delete it.
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing 
    >>>> list [e-mail] 
    >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >>>> 
    >>> 
    >>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing 
    >>> list [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are 
    >>> you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com 
    >>> The IPv6 Company
    >>> 
    >>> This electronic message contains information which may be 
    >>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
    >>> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
    >>> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
    >>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if
    >>> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and
    >>> will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
    >>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
    >>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if
    >>> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will
    >>> be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the
    >>> original sender to inform about this communication and delete
    >>> it.
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing 
    >>> list [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >>> 
    >> 
    >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
    >>  [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are
    >> you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The
    >> IPv6 Company
    >> 
    >> This electronic message contains information which may be 
    >> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for 
    >> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further 
    >> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use 
    >> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including 
    >> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a 
    >> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware 
    >> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents 
    >> of this information, even if partially, including attached files, 
    >> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so 
    >> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this 
    >> communication and delete it.
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
    >>  [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    >> 
    > 
    > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
    > [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you 
    > ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 
    > Company
    > 
    > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged 
    > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive 
    > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty 
    > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents 
    > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is 
    > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
    > you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure,
    > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information,
    > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited,
    > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the
    > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
    > [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
    > 

    _______________________________________________
    v6ops mailing list
    [e-mail]
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.