Re: [VCARDDAV] phonetic-given-name and phonetic-family-name

Barry Leiba <> Wed, 21 March 2012 02:22 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A3721E803C for <>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.841
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.841 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.164, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3i5okUgK7GOv for <>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FC121E801A for <>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by vbbez10 with SMTP id ez10so330124vbb.31 for <>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hgo3RCsa/C6cg3V3eA4P4Ay8D2Qe9S86WXaOy0UuYO4=; b=qd7fAEMDPE5dvPEFk/B3RMlxAiea57CH0GKXsUWbOkkOFkCfFVlRj5+122xFXr1z92 2dvDkAZbahb5zSpMOuh9YUanGoaofx4TSYC9AXDt2xKaYcOlyVZtkU04A8hhhCxg4jHa rVDXLfIumq7frLFINYhGBhOBvg/JTLDN7BBMRd2KAxJs6bx0mzvaXbke0dflTm0cwxyC jDc2PVu6/BGhgoS7x3PqAgbkukaNa6jJ8G0mszZDtf+mH2VrIsAjN0WdI6k9nQ4aMXa+ 9vddTU1yVrcAn5kC4GKLsVrjl9DzHJsJDT1nPnlK7gTrbybPjAiFC1l/VsYVMmraiYSt cm3A==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by with SMTP id k11mr1060518vcw.27.1332296541355; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <> <>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:22:21 -0400
X-Google-Sender-Auth: yG23EfP_tdltMgFsinKOHSmX8NE
Message-ID: <>
From: Barry Leiba <>
To: Tantek Çelik <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: "" <>
Subject: Re: [VCARDDAV] phonetic-given-name and phonetic-family-name
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF vcarddav wg mailing list <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 02:22:22 -0000

> The UI use case of these is sorting by given or family name
> explicitly, beyond a simple "canonical" sort which the 'sort-as'
> parameter would suffice.

Here's where you're losing me.  We had talked about properties like
"soundex", or some other sort of phonetic-name thing.  But the idea
was never to *sort* on these things -- they'd be for human
consumption, or perhaps for a speech synthesizer.  If one's name were
"Hélène", for instance, why on *Earth* would one want to *sort* that
under something other than "H"?

> The options of sort by given name (first name) or sort by family name
> (last name) are provided which sort according to phonetic-given-name
> if any otherwise given-name, and phonetic-family-name if any otherwise
> family-name, respectively. This feature is apparently particularly
> useful in Japanese.

I can't parse this, and I don't understand what you're trying to get
at.  But in general, I get the idea that users of non-English scripts,
such as Japanese or Chinese, would want to have a way to sort the
names along with similar-sounding English names.  But that's already
handled with the sort-as stuff.

To be clear: I think some sort of "this is how the name is pronounced"
fields are useful, and I'd support developing an extension for that.
I just don't see how it has anything to do with sorting.