Re: [VCARDDAV] two component GENDER

Kevin Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com> Fri, 17 December 2010 03:17 UTC

Return-Path: <kevinmarks@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: vcarddav@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: vcarddav@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FBD3A6A34 for <vcarddav@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:17:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.239
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0FXv7suhBvk for <vcarddav@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-fx0-f43.google.com (mail-fx0-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DAB3A69E4 for <vcarddav@ietf.org>; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: by fxm18 with SMTP id 18so248045fxm.16 for <vcarddav@ietf.org>; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:19:36 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3QSZRUpmyMgacHU4265lgUcPmQULgjzsJ/bFfrEtru8=; b=m/7I6ewSkoaOOWpm3YhO62RW10G86UKgB+cJjvZZuRzmJZhZnukTcp1+l/FJXLamVu IX3446layFHw7NouYjD6HEUa7C04yPqyqBHXrTevUJZOOQFWbfSwrvSNBXPhYvYIJCdL 4dyXgZISM3x0OjysB+R66WLM8HTCXJD7jmi40=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Slzsb39jNpZ07wJ5xIDJnGRvMJCn8uWvzj2pTZG2vetsQoJopKcoT30Pc/WqwKbje2 Vd19ETzyRcJHAxmj7IJq8g+NYbW/okz3L9c8zWy5xN7c3p5hwBsOGo8K8PDm/8pax1/l gIMcFogAm/Q4DF0YSJqEMXT5mJwdv+o7bLAi8=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.223.81.79 with SMTP id w15mr567807fak.72.1292555976025; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:19:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.223.74.131 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:19:35 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <4D0AB434.4060804@stpeter.im>
References: <AANLkTikmTKSwBVYYtUmEnPB=9Vd9d9ei8KxS5e_-MWTQ@mail.gmail.com> <4D0A30FC.20201@stpeter.im> <1292519641.15091.6.camel@Nokia-N900> <AANLkTino=jVf6iAbs1A7jwRNBgbpm=R7z-btEwcaTbA9@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=Qcnw+e4vox_9QKLAuxYiCFyhMyP8wFvcAqrB3@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikMsop-juuN=Rdro23g5QXAqbuDSk9XOX2gZojy@mail.gmail.com> <4D0AACAA.6000501@stpeter.im> <AANLkTi=WAQ2V9Ox247T52MVS=TiW0thnPqm3hCiy6iJc@mail.gmail.com> <4D0AB434.4060804@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:19:35 -0800
Message-ID: <AANLkTinjqrY6+N17CrWT+vzX3DtrkMZ7Ri67YkhFPAfH@mail.gmail.com>
From: Kevin Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: vcarddav@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VCARDDAV] two component GENDER
X-BeenThere: vcarddav@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF vcarddav wg mailing list <vcarddav.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vcarddav>, <mailto:vcarddav-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vcarddav>
List-Post: <mailto:vcarddav@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:vcarddav-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vcarddav>, <mailto:vcarddav-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 03:17:53 -0000

I think this makes sense as a way to fit the two facets together
clearly, without either straightjacketing the other. If we take the
long list of user-enetered genders on metafilter, they map into this
pretty clearly:

http://stuff.metafilter.com/genders/genderfield.txt

+-- Uses: 109640; Tokens: 1 -----------------+

GENDER:U;
+-- Uses: 3589; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
male
GENDER:M;male
+-- Uses: 1237; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
female
GENDER:F;female
+-- Uses: 592; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
m
GENDER:M;m
+-- Uses: 218; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
f
GENDER:F;f
+-- Uses: 119; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
dude
GENDER:M;dude
+-- Uses: 89; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
lady
GENDER:F;lady
+-- Uses: 80; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
girl
GENDER:F;girl
+-- Uses: 76; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
yes
GENDER:U;yes
+-- Uses: 73; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
xy
GENDER:M;xy
+-- Uses: 53; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
boy
GENDER:M;boy
+-- Uses: 51; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
guy
GENDER:M;male
+-- Uses: 49; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
xx
GENDER:F;xx
+-- Uses: 48; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
man
GENDER:M;man
+-- Uses: 39; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
mail
GENDER:U;mail
+-- Uses: 26; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
femme
GENDER:F;femme
+-- Uses: 24; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
chick
GENDER:F;chick
+-- Uses: 22; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
bloke
GENDER:M;bloke
+-- Uses: 21; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
woman
GENDER:F;woman
+-- Uses: 18; Tokens: 2 -----------------+
girly girl
GENDER:F;girly girl
male.
GENDER:M;male.
+-- Uses: 14; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
outie
GENDER:M;outie
+-- Uses: 13; Tokens: 1 -----------------+
girly
GENDER:F;girly
+-- Uses: 12; Tokens: 3 -----------------+
male-ish
GENDER:M;male-ish
nuts
GENDER:U;nuts
robot
GENDER:N;robot
+-- Uses: 10; Tokens: 6 -----------------+
fella
GENDER:M;fella
fembot
GENDER:F;fembot
innie
GENDER:F;innie
manly
GENDER:M;manly
mostly male
GENDER:O;mostly male
♂
GENDER:U;♂



On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
> On 12/16/10 5:40 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 16:19, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
>>> On 12/16/10 4:58 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 15:40, Sarah Dopp <sarah@sarahdopp.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tantek, do you think there are cases where a form will ask users for both
>>>>> their sex AND their gender?
>>>>
>>>> Implicitly, yes, and there are already some (a few) sites that do this.
>>>>
>>>> That is, there are sites (e.g. Digg, and previously, Pownce) that
>>>> provide a long list of possible "Gender" values which are a
>>>> combination of various "male" labels, "female" labels, and other
>>>> labels.  By choosing one of these options, the user chooses a gender
>>>> identity label, and an implied sex in many of the cases as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Your system sounds like good data management: it
>>>>> will allow any system to have either pre-defined or free-form values without
>>>>> one data set muddling up the other.
>>>>
>>>> This is *precisely* correct, and in fact, the goal here is to allow
>>>> for backward compatibility with the (perhaps simplistic) data models
>>>> of some sites, while enabling such systems to evolve to allow more
>>>> options for the sex component and finer granularity of gender
>>>> identity.
>>>
>>> Hi Tantek and Sarah,
>>>
>>> Are you proposing that we have two fields, SEX and GENDER?
>>>
>>> The SEX field would have values of M,F,U,O, but could be left empty.
>>>
>>> The GENDER field would be free-form text.
>>>
>>> Am I hearing you correctly?
>>
>> Not two fields.
>>
>> One structured field "GENDER" with two components: "sex" and "gender
>> identity", as described here:
>>
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/VCard4-draft-13-review#GENDER
>>
>> These should not be disconnected into separate fields because they are
>> frequently tightly dependent.
>>
>> This essence of the proposal (one structured field with two
>> components) is unchanged since I wrote up my draft 13 review.
>
> OK, thanks for the clarification. That sounds like a reasonable approach
> to me (with my individual contributor hat on). I look forward to hearing
> from the document editors and other participants.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> VCARDDAV mailing list
> VCARDDAV@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vcarddav
>
>