Re: [VCARDDAV] Registration request for a new GENDER value "X" to indicate nonbinary

Matthew Bischoff <> Tue, 26 April 2022 16:41 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9E5C07CBD3 for <>; Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.893
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9V3NYItRf7_f for <>; Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B4D9C07CBD9 for <>; Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id bz24so13089228qtb.2 for <>; Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=3f+KdSL9doI38sx9z/mzcl2Uw99MaoHBtRngEgMKzUI=; b=Il6rrezYyeySA9gsJSywsAOfsIZUx2Jzrod30fNi3N2eBkLLsJxLAyaqJ99kBdO46H z0rtZn/OtbhBIYSUnlk/JtmCqz38iW065Dse354Q8h2h9ADd9ohvXLPAkJ4iVEKdPan+ 7XQFsJEt1NPCcHbG882zitMvrqs9jteVyk6WkD1tRjYysvnifOF9mUjx6xnTHDbeBK8V w8veS6GVi5cQeguS5gFW/rA/13fRlgiHuSSFFPE64AQEMZ/XxW0vYx7/Dm5SH6cpOs8I HroQdphf0EAKJOXmf4QEMMcjR0Q1HAHstTBz6DkIZOMP4yjD+srzNeF+aKc4ScGOVSjg pMDg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=3f+KdSL9doI38sx9z/mzcl2Uw99MaoHBtRngEgMKzUI=; b=XWq16A8fLBPvXZjP8UDHs2KwvzOm5VE5oDb42FysLxWAHMtu7eIlDJm8Sinwew4tCx wQZns/wR7RjQBVCLraiODM0se6NmT6Ppb1ARCFwPe7uDGxYVxhNps57uZr72NX+ZVJOf 00eDfsQROl04IzHxwreJOcd29oxF5GwtYPVqwTYW9Iz2qTn59VV5MBwebSg84sWI6v09 Slr4FJQ7W6FQbktvmZ/alx1csjiGnplJYVPZQg015stGMWE77IqYQPEs3kTOWZxuWtaV L0gmMrDfbtoSMoBjGMGaX9ebgQ3sP5dsEgtUVayMcO0nwGEZNtrWEOKZ6KVEMy0Rtexp bTfw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530gkK+lHmVlw/zGxqFZijbwj8HVz5c9hT36vU0282dJLE9jgekJ Bqz+5nkx5e/Ur36WIkDsjwBOejDZdnM8S8ww
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXxVs589BLmDrjNgxYAgc3g2q/GUOTiz2h+h8bl+gpdGYIiKKKMHreO3VfwpiABSYy1anAbw==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e48:0:b0:2f3:7417:6056 with SMTP id e8-20020ac84e48000000b002f374176056mr4034903qtw.76.1650991267478; Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ([2607:f2c0:e00a:df::e]) by with ESMTPSA id o20-20020a05620a0d5400b0069c71a71ed3sm6622267qkl.33.2022. (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Bischoff <>
Message-Id: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_63250979-F119-4FD9-90E3-633BD7C2729C"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.\))
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:41:04 -0400
In-Reply-To: <>
Cc: Bron Gondwana <>,
To: "Emily Love Mills (she/her)" <>
References: <> <> <>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [VCARDDAV] Registration request for a new GENDER value "X" to indicate nonbinary
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF vcarddav wg mailing list <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:43:31 -0000

Hi Emily,

Sorry to revive such and old message, but I’ve spent the morning reading through your previous posts on the GENDER and PRONOUN fields and would love to get involved in helping to write / provide feedback on the related RFCs, if you or anyone else could use another set of eyes. 

For context, I’ve been making the case to folks on the Apple side that these fields should be added to for a while. Here’s a recent feedback I filed with the Contacts team: <radar:>. An engineer there suggested I get involved here since this work would likely intersect. 

Let me know if I can be of any assistance and where I should look for any ongoing discussion.

Matthew Bischoff (they/them)

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 5:05 PM, Emily Love Mills (she/her) <> wrote:
> Thanks for that context! Didn't know this discussion was underway!
> I see how the current proposal is insufficient for the grammaticalGender purposes. An idea I'd propose is giving the PRONOUN property the same structure as the GENDER property. Each PRONOUN value could consist of a structured component along with free-form text. The first component indicating the grammatical gender of the pronouns, with the second being the free-form text entry. The proposed list in JSContact of "animate", "female", "inanimate", "male", "neuter" looks reasonable for this purpose. As Darcy suggests in that thread, these classifications are more specifically related to pronouns than gender. I'm not confident it's possible to make an exhaustive language-agnostic structure to store every pronoun variation, but the grammaticalGender proposal seems like a good compromise to balance complexity between applications reading vCards and applications writing them.
> Examples:
> PRONOUN:M;he/him/his
> PRONOUN:N;they/them
> PRONOUN:;xe/xir
> Emily Love Mills (she/her)
> <>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Thursday, January 6th, 2022 at 3:08 PM, Bron Gondwana <> wrote:
>> Hi Emily,
>> There's discussion about exactly this happening over in the JMAP working group for how we handle gender and pronouns in the JSContact format.
>> Meanwhile, we're currently planning to re-charter the CALEXT working group to bring VCARD work into scope, since there isn't currently a working group for maintaining VCARD.  The plan is to move JSContact there so there's a single place.  Aligning this update to VCARD with the JSContact work so that it's easy to translate between the two would be ideal.
>> You're very welcome to join the discussion on the JMAP mailing list in the meanwhile - most recently this thread:
>> <>
>> We'll keep working on JSContact in the JMAP working group until the charter change for CALEXT is done.
>> Cheers,
>> Bron (a working group co-chair for both those two working groups)
>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022, at 07:27, Emily Love Mills (she/her) wrote:
>>> Hi! Please find below my registration request for a new GENDER value "X" to indicate nonbinary.
>>> Value:  X
>>> Purpose:  Indicates that the entity the vCard represents has a nonbinary sex designation.
>>> Conformance:  This value can be used with the sex component of the value on the "GENDER" property.
>>> Example(s):
>>> GENDER:X;Nonbinary
>>> Emily Love Mills (she/her)
>>> <>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> VCARDDAV mailing list
>>> <>
>>> <>
>> --
>>   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd