Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one or two blank looks on int-serv reference during the bar bof)
Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> Mon, 01 August 2011 15:07 UTC
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Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:07:58 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org>
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Cc: "sdnp@lucidvision.com" <sdnp@lucidvision.com>, "Bitar, Nabil N" <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>, VNRG <vnrg@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one or two blank looks on int-serv reference during the bar bof)
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> The goal is having the applications programming the network, without > breaking it. So you're saying the objective is an API to a VN, right? > This is not research, and we have no intention in forcing applications > to adapt network-operation semantics. It still seems like the same problem space to me, but the difference is/may be in objectives. You want a concrete solution while that isn't a specific VNRG objective. In other words, you want the work in *E* not *R*, right? Lou On 8/1/2011 10:58 AM, Ping Pan wrote: > This is not research, and we have no intention in forcing applications > to adapt network-operation semantics. > > The goal is having the applications programming the network, without > breaking it. > > - Ping > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net > <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote: > > Ping, > Nice intro/overview. So how does this effort relate to the VNRG > (http://irtf.org/vnrg, also cross-posted)? Seems to me that there is a > fair bit of overlap. > > Thanks, > Lou > > On 8/1/2011 10:42 AM, Ping Pan wrote: > > Hi, > > > > You have raised a very critical question here. During IETF and > over the > > weekend, several have asked off-line about our motivation. Are we > doing > > RSVP, UNI, GENI, bandwidth broker etc.? > > > > So allow me to explain our thinking and motivation at very high > level here: > > > > (1) Why? > > > > Many of us have been a part of the Internet creation and deployment in > > the past many years. It has become something more than we had dreamed > > for better or for worse. While we were squeezing the last bit of > > inefficiency out of routing, forwarding and policing, the new > > applications have emerged and proliferated. While we were > designing the > > interface between transport, packet, broadband and wireless networks, > > the new services have been created and deployed simply over the > > underlying networks. While we were optimizing the use of bandwidth and > > processing on our hardware, the Moore's Law has made all parts of the > > network less expensive each day. This is the way it is! > > > > The interface between application and network has been an interesting > > area: We have seen the approach in closing the network and enforcing > > tighter control over users within a walled garden (good luck!). We > have > > also seen the attempts in pushing the traditional network > > operation methodology into applications (yuk!) > > > > My belief is that we should open up the network, embrace > > new applications and provide simpler and easier interface to the > users. > > The value of the network is in attracting more traffic, more users and > > more applications, not in creating more middlemen. > > > > Many have been saying that network should be a "dumb pipe". True and > > false. It's true that, as far as users are concerned, any link between > > two network endpoints should be predictable and reliable as a simple > > wire. At the same time, the network needs to be pretty smart in making > > the interface dumb. > > > > Today, we can create connections at any layer, at any rate, in any > > format, with any property and in any granularity inside the > network. Our > > motivation here is in making the network connections visible and > > programmable to the applications. > > > > (2) Why us? > > > > For a long time, Web and network technologies have been developed > > in parallel. However, the recent demand in data centers requires > > the massive web transaction and the heavy network transport taking > place > > within a few hundred feet. Web operation, driven by massive parallel > > processing and massive content replication, demands simple and cheaper > > network support. To date, no network port is faster enough, and no > > application-network operation is efficient enough. > > > > I believe that the network technology needs to scale up > > and accommodate the demand from the applications. We need to make our > > network simpler, easier and more efficient. (Yes, we say this > every time > > when we start a new project, the outcome is always contradicting. But, > > we try anyway! ;-)) > > > > We envision to create programmable network API's, by adapting both > > networking and application techniques. We will leverage the existing > > networking technologies, designed and defined in IETF, to create, > > monitor and discover network resources, services and connections. > And we > > will leverage the scalable and secure message processing > capability from > > Web (or over port-80) for API's. > > > > (3) Examples (be more specific) > > > > Network programmability applies in many places, and we see a few > > applications need to be solved real fast. > > > > First, the VM network interface is VLAN. As such, any VM network-level > > service manipulation need to be accomplished through the management at > > VLAN-granularity. > > > > For example, if VM applications require non-disruptive services, the > > service operators may map the VM's to the network links with > bandwidth, > > delay and protection constraints, by utilizing MPLS and FRR to achieve > > network-wide support. > > > > Another example is in supporting enterprise VPN's. In this > scenario, the > > service operators may bundle the relevant VM's to the > corresponding MPLS > > VPN's. All the techniques defined in IETF can be readily used to > support > > VM mobility and service security here. > > > > Another area we need to to look at is in the area of video/media > > services. OTT video services will likely store the content on the data > > centers, and utilize local CDN's for delivery (take a look at > Netflix). > > The content may be replicated from data center to data center, and > CDN's > > may utilize different distribute techniques. However, the service > > operators may map the (logical) content to the actual distribution > > engines with service guarantees. I know some of the work has > > been discussed in ALTO, so let's work together there. > > > > Service monitoring is another important aspect of the work. Each web > > service is supported by many back-end applications, which may operated > > in different locations. To have a robust service, the service > operators > > need to have a way to monitor and guarantee network-services to those > > services. > > > > In summary, we envision SDN work to bridge the gap between the > > applications and the network. In the future, we may address > > inter-networking concerns. However, much of the networking-level work > > can be solved with a better OSS. I'd prefer to solve the > > application-network interfacing issues first. > > > > > > (4) Next Steps > > > > I have an old-school when it comes to this: running code and rough > > consensus! > > > > In the coming weeks, we would like to collect more use cases, > > collaborate with many, learn from each other. At the end, we > should put > > together the architecture, protocol design and hopefully some > prototypes. > > > > Hope this makes sense. > > > > Best regards, > > > > - Ping > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Bitar, Nabil N > > <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com <mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com> > <mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com > <mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > I think during the meeting a good spectrum of use cases was > > discussed raging from data center type applications to the case of > > inter-provider connection setup or policy transfer. It seems that > > there is a need to put down the use cases on paper and see what > > existing mechanisms can be used to address these use cases and why > > there is new work needed. Is it fresh new work or extensions to > > existing mechanisms? What are the gaps in what exists is being > > solved? It is not clear to me that there is one hammer that > will be > > able to address all the use cases , and if needed, without > > recreating the wheel or adding complexities or deficiencies That > > may be biased by the view I had walking into the meeting that > there > > was tendency to focus on the interface between the application and > > the SDN controller to request resources maybe subject to > > constraints, to receive information, response to a request and/or > > notification from the SDN controller. What the SDN controller > does > > may capitalize on existing mechanisms which will be dependent > on the > > use case and the nature of the application request. While the > > interface can be generic and extensible, the use case or > > application will drive what information is exchanged. > > I appreciate a clarification if all the the following still at > play > > here or something was pruned out or too early to prune: > > > > 1. application -SDN controller interface. What is the > function of > > that interface is going to be application dependent. > That goes > > for other interfaces > > 2. SDN controller-SDN interface > > 3. SDN controller-SDN controller interface > > 4. Path computation (not necessarily TE ) for a tunnel or > > microflow based on certain constraints. > > 5. flow mapping to a path, including flow classification and > > configuration on every hop. > > > > Thanks, > > Nabil > > From: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com > <mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com> > > <mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>> > > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:29:20 -0400 > > To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com <mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com > <mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com>>> > > Cc: "sdnp@lucidvision.com <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com> > <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com>>" > > <sdnp@lucidvision.com <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com> > <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [Sdnp] one or two blank looks on int-serv reference > > during the bar bof > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2011, at 11:15 AM, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com > > <mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com <mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com>>> wrote: > > > >> Hi Guys,____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Regarding (2), if we’re agnostic then this work seems to be more > >> general, it could apply to OF-controlled networks, > >> MPLS/GMPLS-controlled networks, PCE/non-PCE, etc.____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Regarding (3) not sure that this follows – in a lot of the > control > >> plane technologies there is a way to control the path. Question, > >> though, how much does an application need to know about the path? > >> > > > > I think that depends on what the application is and what it's > > purpose is. It may be interested in network resources other than > > just links and paths. Also, as Danny mentioned in his use case > > yesterday there is a need for varying levels of granularity here. > > > > Tom > > > >> ____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Cheers,____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Lyndon____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> BTW, the comparison to intserv reminds me that when I try to > >> explain OF to people, they commonly ask why this is different > from > >> FORCES!____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> > >> <imageb58e9e.gif@b6446a3d.24d4497b > >> <mailto:imageb58e9e.gif@b6446a3d.24d4497b > <mailto:imageb58e9e.gif@b6446a3d.24d4497b>>> > >> > >> *From:* sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com > <mailto:sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com> > >> <mailto:sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com > <mailto:sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com>> > >> [mailto:sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com > <mailto:sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com>] *On Behalf Of *Edward Crabbe > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:23 AM > >> *To:* Ping Pan > >> *Cc:* <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com > <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com>>sdnp@lucidvision.com > <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com> > >> <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com <mailto:sdnp@lucidvision.com>> > >> *Subject:* Re: [Sdnp] one or two blank looks on int-serv > reference > >> during the bar bof____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Our goal here is to solve a specific problem: map application > >> flows (in whatever the form) into physical network > tunnels.____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> three things here: ____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> 1) so basically, you're saying you want a common language to > >> build a FEC, mapping a set of n-tuple matches (vlan, whatever) > >> into a specific encapsulation?____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> 2) are these tunnels pre-existing? if so, fine, if not, we now > >> have to set up the tunnel, at which point we're back to dealing > >> with either OF type per hop state setup or an existing end to > >> end signaling protocol (and we're dealing with things at a per > >> host, app level? Thus the int-serv reference ;-). Perhaps the > >> idea is to be agnostic regarding path setup method here?____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> 3) would this also imply that that definition of the > >> characteristics, including path, that the tunnel takes over the > >> underlying infrastructure is in scope?____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> ____ > >> > >> No need in limiting applications, and no need in making > >> network smarter (or dumber). ;-) > >> ____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> Thanks!____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> - Ping > >> > >> ____ > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Edward Crabbe < > >> <mailto:edc@google.com > <mailto:edc@google.com>>edc@google.com <mailto:edc@google.com> > <mailto:edc@google.com <mailto:edc@google.com>>> > >> wrote:____ > >> > >> for reference, was referring to:____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> > <http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2210.txt>http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2210.txt____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SDNP mailing list > >> <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com > <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com>>SDNP@lucidvision.com > <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com> > >> <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com > <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com>> > >> > <http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp>http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SDNP mailing list > >> SDNP@lucidvision.com <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com> > <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com>> > >> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SDNP mailing list > > SDNP@lucidvision.com <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com> > <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com>> > > http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SDNP mailing list > > SDNP@lucidvision.com <mailto:SDNP@lucidvision.com> > > http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp > >
- Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one … Lou Berger
- Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one … Lou Berger
- [vnrg] 答复: Re: [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: … wu.bo
- Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one … David Meyer
- Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one … Ping Pan
- Re: [vnrg] [Sdnp] High-Level Motivation (Re: one … Ping Pan