Re: [VoT] IPR disclosures

John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> Fri, 24 November 2017 04:36 UTC

Return-Path: <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
X-Original-To: vot@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: vot@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DB612947F for <vot@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.61
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ve7jtb-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hKA4OSROjbK6 for <vot@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-oi0-x233.google.com (mail-oi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A19012946E for <vot@ietf.org>; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-oi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id h81so14338650oib.8 for <vot@ietf.org>; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:49 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ve7jtb-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LxtQZnqtT/h4ybBX7NZFz+Il7rDg+JleYDxGI3YFY9U=; b=oiqI9h5nLIZnOPbJeCuTEBq0ogP9goV8nWVzuabP+EW+XNXUZi0wE7OayCa4rkYSQU TWONqFezZEIDL6JSs2WfkT8MxJy+Iv4zaWANuMPJb0iIiDzBs7/Y1RMvnlJiI6GJKI5f v6WcxbSGMe6b7VGaXsLq4fP3oXRRYmTGJ3MSGt48zv25GifNclW+wAjv6cwERt+AgELP hA5LmoN0hwoscsaLHz39EJPfWlPr4DoSkAjIjaOmFHIiNYSwSjreqx3qwnuJCPrBTLdh Pos6Raz1hZU1CwLmjAzugXuDEwMwhzXzOimyfJHXMirnnmd10IYrMXrJqHCer5XQ55J8 orXw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LxtQZnqtT/h4ybBX7NZFz+Il7rDg+JleYDxGI3YFY9U=; b=pVYDA7C8BZZXZcDMV5QMid2YuU5Zm6bkJvEyPtH2dsXSSsgl1MzpQNXf4XpflsUXNq P/2nSFDsHCNh7JaiRbO59rFmSfdE6Il5vxmrIi9V86nOkj6U+Nj4vS8KRtd+E9i9eoQD acZEnXrgcpyv71gZxZ6kuoH9UNveD5xI/SHbellPARa0YZGKVhgQpDW7dprBlo+v5frW 8hWIXarmXnwZFiqx8JF5jVKWqTLeIn8t9q7susRzKhVsnE4v5t/FbyD9Y9iZdgrRATfl Do+CR/LB4Pf6kJsnc8lkbsllEgGDjtj+x46GmZZNT/2FnnmgBva1/ViTrOSKgfBBARnz QTiw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5EnwreQ4crwNG78eE0UXKc1KgaasLca5K5VB+Wglltavsm8JUC o+td2ae5gQIYqV4TftXvAa/OFRfIVR6t7RPOBOoCcA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZrDmJizq8d6xNoyIZFPsJ83pI8yVO2Rl7vHIsaiUF6nHwT9PjVDEaga6w69jABVRp47wlAghmBQcjAepzh6m4=
X-Received: by 10.202.117.13 with SMTP id q13mr7795054oic.52.1511498208109; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:48 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.157.3.16 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.157.3.16 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:36:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <30FC6686-4AFC-44B0-82D1-027CE3DDC3D5@nist.gov>
References: <CAANoGh+hGmwOufaX1gik4zD50auT37pUKjcApuyNbmbBjrssfg@mail.gmail.com> <CAANoGh+r4LaunjnR_8W3wHJaAt7Thv8v0QH4Gxy0s05d0Qb13g@mail.gmail.com> <CAANoGhJMyfGNBNa_XFnt2zMsNLfC7s6V3=LJHTyKChjd7m0ovA@mail.gmail.com> <CAANoGh+vTWSKh75Kr91=LUvXn_O4p4MaAq9jM93GGo0U092ETA@mail.gmail.com> <34a6e930-5d60-6b64-5d6e-49e062628a74@sunet.se> <07DB5C07-2DE0-4DD2-B63B-02343499E546@oracle.com> <71FA2939-36BF-4B1F-98BE-619421293143@nist.gov> <1273163981.20171124134926@CryptoPhoto.com> <30FC6686-4AFC-44B0-82D1-027CE3DDC3D5@nist.gov>
From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 13:36:46 +0900
Message-ID: <CAANoGhJyOCgDk8Fax0Jg10qgH972Kdzv522xj9unHTpLUJsbhQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Paul Grassi <paul.grassi@nist.gov>
Cc: Chris Drake <Chris.Drake@cryptophoto.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="001a1134fb3ece975f055eb319d1"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/vot/ha7r7bPZI7SW5vInzu1_6RJ0Pjo>
Subject: Re: [VoT] IPR disclosures
X-BeenThere: vot@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Vectors of Trust discussion list <vot.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/vot>, <mailto:vot-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/vot/>
List-Post: <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:vot-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>, <mailto:vot-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 04:36:53 -0000

We should probably try and keep the VOT and iGov discussions separate.

IGov's use of VOT should largly be on the iGov mailing list at the OIDF.
VOT is only a small reference in iGov.  If that needs to be expanded then
discuss over there.

This list is for the core VOT spec, and it's fitness to purpose.

Concrete examples of profiles for security token trust that cannot be
accommodated by VOT would be helpful when making points that the spec is
inadiquate in some way.

Taking off yet again, so out of communication for at least 12h.

John B.

On Nov 23, 2017 11:17 PM, "Grassi, Paul A. (Fed)" <paul.grassi@nist.gov>;
wrote:

> As the USG rep, I can confidently state that the use case this version
> supports is 90% of our use cases. Don’t hold us up for the last 10%. That
> 10% will be amazing, but can come later. What is being asked for is
> gold-plating, not something that if not done means we are wrong.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> *From: *Chris Drake <Chris.Drake@CryptoPhoto.com>;
> *Date: *Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 10:49 PM
> *To: *"Grassi, Paul A. (Fed)" <paul.grassi@nist.gov>;, Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>;
> *Cc: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>;, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>;,
> Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>;, "vot@ietf.org"; <vot@ietf.org>;
> *Subject: *Re: [VoT] IPR disclosures
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm on the side of "get it right".  OpenID swept a similar range of topics
> into the "out of scope" basket, which rendered their first standard so
> unusable they had to come back and do a second one.
>
> Lets at least learn from history, and build something *effectively
> useable* out of the gate.
>
> You can't drive unsafe or inappropriate cars on any roads, let alone in a
> SAML lane.  Nobody cares *how* it goes wrong, they just care that it did -
> so it's our job to look ahead and watch out for those obstacles now; rather
> than shroud them in SEP
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhitchhikers.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FSomebody_Else%2527s_Problem_field&data=02%7C01%7Cpaul.grassi%40nist.gov%7Cc7d5fb325a5b4a20da7608d532ee6374%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636470921831105773&sdata=RSZtGAFRE%2B%2FJl2nT2iSnfndt0EW097naltRcS67%2BYQ0%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
> Kind Regards,
> Chris Drake
>
>
> Friday, November 24, 2017, 1:27:18 PM, Grassi, Paul A. (Fed) wrote:
>
> Fine. But as I have said you want a unicorn when we just want a car that
> can drive in the same Lane as SAML. Your unicorn is coming, as the phases
> of igov include international agreement on vot vectors/values and attribute
> metadata to assert 'assurance' of attributes that are unrelated to
> proofing.
>
> I happy for your contribution don't take unicorn comment poorly. Just a
> quick post turkey dinner way of making a point. Happy US Thanksgiving.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; wrote:
>
> The issue i am concerned about then is that by leaving out the issue of
> claims than the vot is incomplete and would require a separate statement.
>
> This leads to a lot of interop and complexity problems down the road.
> Which value wins etc given they would overlap.
>
> The vot does not have to address it now but it should have the capability
> to do so (that may not be possible without a model).
>
> This is a lot like when we found loa was actually multi dimensional and it
> had to dramatically change.  IAL falls into the same problem.
>
> Phil
>
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>; wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2017-11-23 21:23, John Bradley wrote:
>
>
>
> Authors,
>
>
>
>
>
> As part of the write-up for the Vectors of trust document, we need an
>
>
>
> IPR disclosure from all of you.
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you aware of any IPR related to the following VOT document?
>
>
>
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%
> 3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dricher-
> 2Dvectors-2Dof-2Dtrust_%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q
> IrMUB65eapI_JnE%26r%3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA%26m%
> 3DQbLS61Tkq_l46PCZqD5dxO1fLIa4bYOrGBHGDtJrGNY%26s%3DMzyyadRifkHa-
> POatwYHEwdNoC7wUj777DGKpyRF2RE%26e&data=02%7C01%7Cpaul.grassi%40nist.gov%
> 7Cab4db3d0fc7a4643a7af08d532c119eb%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c6
> 1dec%7C1%7C0%7C636470727310173986&sdata=1dkeGx37WKNwiWfLzR5YNC4KBjqYWq
> Vnt%2B%2FOt7ArqvE%3D&reserved=0=
>
>
>
>
>
> Please reply to the list.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> vot mailing list
>
>
>
> vot@ietf.org
>
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%
> 3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_vot%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%
> 3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE%26r%
> 3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA%26m%3DQbLS61Tkq_
> l46PCZqD5dxO1fLIa4bYOrGBHGDtJrGNY%26s%3DvMBbg4PMZy1qgq6VilC4_
> SKh4m6b5wkecJsTBKu6txU%26e&data=02%7C01%7Cpaul.grassi%40nist.gov%
> 7Cab4db3d0fc7a4643a7af08d532c119eb%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c6
> 1dec%7C1%7C0%7C636470727310173986&sdata=kSRrzffFE6tfhI5p%2F4bk5qXC23kK%
> 2BlMjSa34zlyqaZY%3D&reserved=0=
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fvot&
> data=02%7C01%7Cpaul.grassi%40nist.gov%7Cab4db3d0fc7a4643a7af08d532c119eb%
> 7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636470727310173986&sdata=
> 6OwTIaa5BjmDXJU4vAzBWtOSbH1Zpav4J6O1Ume7Ra0%3D&reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>