Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> Fri, 13 May 2016 07:53 UTC
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From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 08:52:55 +0100
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Justin, For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP won't accept. Thanks, Julian. On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote: > That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the > trustmark. > > Julian > On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote: > >> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they’d >> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transaction >> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related >> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as >> part of the IdP’s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This is >> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transaction. >> >> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to >> interpret the VoT in. >> >> — Justin >> >> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which >> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding >> coming in half way through the drafting tho. >> >> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit >> around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures >> to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step >> further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's >> "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but >> store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of >> administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid >> authentication response. >> >> It feels like we need to do more work in this area. >> >> Regards, >> >> Julian. >> >> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary >>> Credential Usage) >>> >>> Mutual-authentication is missing. When no provision is made to prevent >>> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or >>> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, >>> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy. >>> >>> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the >>> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used >>> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack >>> scenarios. >>> >>> This problem gets tricky quite fast: >>> >>> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works >>> out their resistance strength to common attacks? what about different >>> modes?) >>> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether >>> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?) >>> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were >>> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?) >>> >>> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with >>> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a >>> broken SSL warning, or has malware. They're also equally useless in most >>> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and >>> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own >>> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think). Much >>> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one >>> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into >>> revealing them to spoof sites. >>> >>> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing. Right now, every >>> vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to >>> point *back* the other way! >>> >>> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP >>> a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual >>> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range >>> of (and all common) modern threats. >>> >>> Chris. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> vot mailing list >>> vot@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot >>> >>> >> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx> >> _______________________________________________ >> vot mailing list >> vot@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot >> >> >>
- [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Us… Chris
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Julian White
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Justin Richer
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Julian White
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Chris
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Justin Richer
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Julian White
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Chris
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Julian White
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Josh Howlett
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Julian White
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Josh Howlett
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Andrew Hughes
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Josh Howlett
- Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credentia… Justin Richer