Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com> Sun, 16 January 2011 00:03 UTC
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From: Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 16:05:43 -0800
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To: Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
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options 1 & 2 require someone to step up and volunteer to author new docs. any takers? if no one will step up, then i think option #3 is most appropriate. if i read barry's email correctly, euthanizing VWRAP now does not preclude rechartering in the future if there's renewed interest. -cheers -meadhbh -- meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve" @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh@gmail.com On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> wrote: > Meadhbh, > Meadhbh, > > As i stated a few mails back, i am certainly willing to help, but I am > not a proffesional in this field, and my expertise is insufficient to > play an editors role. -and to be honnest, i do not have the needed > time for such a role either. But for sure i will be making > contributions to intro document where possible. > > Option 3 is conflating core participation and consensus/enthusiasm. I > am fairly optimistic about the possibility to (eventually) reach > consensus, but we might indeed be critically low on core > participation. Barry wrote "Three or four participants isn't enough" > and he is right. This tread has only a handfull of responses, > dangerously close to that level. > > Close, but not there yet, we will see what happens on the wiki. If > *that* fails its time for option 3. > > --Vaughn > > On 1/15/11, Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com> wrote: >> whoops. yes. meant to say "you're voting for option #2" >> >> but my original point was that there's a fair amount of work to be >> done, and i was asking if you were going to re-write the intro. if we >> can't find anyone willing to do the work, we might have to go with >> option #3. >> >> -cheers >> -meadhbh >> -- >> meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve" >> @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh@gmail.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> No, i am voting for option 2. Barry wrote: >>> >>> "2. Come to consensus on significant changes to the direction of the >>> VWRAP specs[...] Consider rechartering, if the direction has changed >>> enough to require that." >>> >>> All i am saying is that i don't see the need for rechartering *yet*. >>> >>> --Vaughn >>> >>> On 1/15/11, Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> you're voting for option 1 then, but are you volunteering to do the work? >>>> >>>> the current intro XML is in SVN at >>>> http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/wg/vwrap/ >>>> >>>> you can check them out with the command: >>>> >>>> svn co http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/wg/vwrap/ vwrap_documents >>>> >>>> if there's interest, i'm happy to put on a 30 minute "how to edit, >>>> write and publish an internet draft" presentation in world somewhere. >>>> >>>> -cheers >>>> -meadhbh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve" >>>> @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I am not convinced rechartering is actually needed. The introduction >>>>> document certainly needs an overhaul, and we to need to reaffirm we >>>>> are all on the same track, but I think that the existing charter might >>>>> still work for us. I suggest we work with it, at least until it >>>>> becomes the obvious obstacle for progress. >>>>> >>>>> -- Vaughn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1/15/11, Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Hey Barry, >>>>>> >>>>>> so it seems like there's at least some interest for rechartering. >>>>>> what's the mechanics for that? do we call for a new BoF or just hash >>>>>> out a new charter on the mailing list? >>>>>> >>>>>> -cheers >>>>>> -meadhbh >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve" >>>>>> @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh@gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 2:49 AM, Vaughn Deluca >>>>>> <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Although i have only been operating in the fringe of this group, i >>>>>>> would like to argue for #2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It clear that some refocussing and consensus building is needed, but >>>>>>> we should at least give that a try. To me it seems definitely to >>>>>>> early to give up. If we try #2 it will become clear if #3 can >>>>>>> indedeed be avoided. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see christina's point of starting at the basis, and fixing SSO >>>>>>> first. However, I feel that from the perspective of VWRAP SSO is >>>>>>> actually a well described sub-problem that can be left to others to >>>>>>> solve, while we focus on the specific of avatars and assets. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In terms of actual commitment, i think the wiki idea is great, and i >>>>>>> will try to free some time to contribute there in the near future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Vaughn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 1/15/11, Cristina Videira Lopes <lopes@ics.uci.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> I'm leaning towards #2 and #3 simultaneously :) >>>>>>>> Let me explain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The goal of achieving virtual world interoperability always felt like >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> niche goal to me, but one that, given the nature of these >>>>>>>> applications, >>>>>>>> touched on a couple of more foundational issues: single sign ons and >>>>>>>> Web >>>>>>>> services security -- in short, federations that cross enterprise >>>>>>>> boundaries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a variety of implementations for SSOs out there, more >>>>>>>> recently >>>>>>>> the one in the Hypergrid, and a variety of ways of securing Web >>>>>>>> services. But no standards that I know of -- apart from the SOAP >>>>>>>> stuff. >>>>>>>> Perhaps this group should band with others who may be interested in >>>>>>>> standardizing these things -- SSO seems like it's ripe for that. In >>>>>>>> other words, let's join with others on common foundational issues, >>>>>>>> rather than separating from them along the lines of application >>>>>>>> domains >>>>>>>> (VWs vs everything else). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In that sense I'd argue for #3, because doing an IETF SSO working >>>>>>>> group >>>>>>>> properly would require substantial change and outreach. There's a >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> history in SSOs. The good news is that from what I read in [1], there >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> now some interest in the IETF on this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, some issues are application-domain-specific -- e.g. avatars, >>>>>>>> assets; in the Web model, these are MIME type issues. They need >>>>>>>> standardization too -- or at least generalized agreement on the data >>>>>>>> that gets passed around. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In that sense I'd argue for #2. There are MIME type standards that >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> group can define specifically for virtual worlds. That's one part of >>>>>>>> interoperability that only ppl in the VW field can tackle. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Crista / Diva >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] http://isoc.org/wp/ietfjournal/?p=1715 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 1/14/2011 9:13 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >>>>>>>>> Good day, all. >>>>>>>>> The chairs and area directors have been talking about the status and >>>>>>>>> future of the VWRAP working group. Owing to changes in focus and >>>>>>>>> commitment by both companies and individuals, things have been >>>>>>>>> languishing, and it's not clear to us that we have what we need to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> the chartered work done. The introduction document looked close to >>>>>>>>> ready, until some controversy on its content and direction brewed, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the result of that discussion was inconclusive. The normative >>>>>>>>> drafts >>>>>>>>> that have seen some implementation (type system, launch message, >>>>>>>>> etc.) >>>>>>>>> also appear nearly technically complete, but some issues have been >>>>>>>>> identified and not resolved by subsequent discussion, consensus, and >>>>>>>>> editing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At this point, the mailing list has been too quiet for too long, all >>>>>>>>> the draft documents have expired, and we need to make a decision >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> what to do. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The chairs and ADs see three possibilities: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. Find new document editors, pick up the chartered work with the >>>>>>>>> existing document base, and get moving again. Get the introduction >>>>>>>>> document finished by the end of February, and make progress on the >>>>>>>>> others. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2. Come to consensus on significant changes to the direction of the >>>>>>>>> VWRAP specs, find new document editors, revamp the introduction >>>>>>>>> document, and get that finished, or substantially so, by the end of >>>>>>>>> February. Have some clear consensus, clear direction, and >>>>>>>>> enthusiasm >>>>>>>>> to continue. Consider rechartering, if the direction has changed >>>>>>>>> enough to require that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3. Accept that we no longer have enough core participation, >>>>>>>>> consensus, >>>>>>>>> and enthusiasm to make progress, and close the working group. >>>>>>>>> Future >>>>>>>>> work in the virtual world area could charter a new working group >>>>>>>>> later. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Note that options 1 and 2 both require that we demonstrate >>>>>>>>> sufficient >>>>>>>>> energy and participation to really get work done and to demonstrate >>>>>>>>> consensus. That means that we need people to commit to >>>>>>>>> writing/editing documents, actively discussing the technical issues >>>>>>>>> with the goal of reaching consensus on the content of the documents, >>>>>>>>> and, importantly, reviewing documents and showing that we have >>>>>>>>> consensus. Three or four participants isn't enough, and conflicting >>>>>>>>> ideas that can't be resolved into a consensus-based position won't >>>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What say you, VWRAP participants? Can we pick up the work and make >>>>>>>>> progress? Shall we close the working group, and perhaps consider >>>>>>>>> something in future? Do you favour options 1, 2, or 3? Or do you >>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>> an alternative option you'd like to bring up? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barry and Joshua, VWRAP chairs >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> vwrap mailing list >>>>>>>>> vwrap@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> vwrap mailing list >>>>>>>> vwrap@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> vwrap mailing list >>>>>>> vwrap@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Katherine Mancuso
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Mark Bannon
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… peter host
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Lawson English
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- [vwrap] Relevant panel at the IEFT: the role of s… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Nexii Malthus
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… mysticaldemina
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick