Re: [vwrap] Statements of Consensus. Flexibity First.

Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com> Wed, 06 April 2011 00:24 UTC

Return-Path: <dzonatas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: vwrap@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: vwrap@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5014A3A6942 for <vwrap@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:24:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.52
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2MTtb1JFeQz for <vwrap@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-iy0-f172.google.com (mail-iy0-f172.google.com [209.85.210.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725833A6844 for <vwrap@ietf.org>; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by iye19 with SMTP id 19so1121223iye.31 for <vwrap@ietf.org>; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=b+R4GfoulYGsv7BXrMfHfVhdsqxXm89n9Bw/Du6n7Qg=; b=F1ISTucHyVQRGoVwYwG0Ecc1g6rybhsVJsKv+WanfdTMWb4/PGFv5TNQxl4IxngEM/ MUZDUJxEDJh1bFzAQcghDCeiJfCa+Un+ha22Y/UQgeaqGIYmVxmkHQxNUoT0gJHB1PHi 4dzj6NwdNFheWNY5Cfe7StToHS+Kr/NXTcMe4=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Bxdb/WZgQvdZOV4ZtyCHumER82trvf6v3J9h9ckqOvTKC41/99i2QfoPCeD/vFQq/n 4zw0H/U0pKjLay4ZNz6peURnNRFsWCQF4gJ56kqPGA3AJla2ML58skwdRNfYNGtUF/8a 06zpn62CamL8TIIL05/UyQ945Gy/SjpLiTq/c=
Received: by 10.42.28.129 with SMTP id n1mr447325icc.287.1302049554307; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.0.50] (adsl-71-137-195-251.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [71.137.195.251]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vx7sm4469469icb.2.2011.04.05.17.25.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:25:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <4D9BB342.7020607@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:26:42 -0700
From: Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100329)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Morgaine <morgaine.dinova@googlemail.com>
References: <20110330011458.GB8908@alinoe.com> <4D931434.2030206@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD92FDE22F3F@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> <20110401161332.37ca0f9e@hikaru.localdomain> <AANLkTimcMbrJzXYTvs0cszn+rhH4ygEPvzvLwu94gr-4@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTi=hL5YTAW9_V7EA3C3fiknU0o_ARA@mail.gmail.com> <20110405152025.26ba8f77@hikaru.localdomain> <4D9B4586.9080004@gmail.com> <BANLkTi=hX1ne=hvFqPh_EwTV_Urryxbp_A@mail.gmail.com> <4D9B73D5.4000809@gmail.com> <BANLkTikO5qY+ZOJuMkBfMRT2Y3HjtPCLYw@mail.gmail.com> <4D9B8ADA.9000106@gmail.com> <BANLkTimgdU6mzu+Vz-yUU_33cm9VrdHR0w@mail.gmail.com> <4D9B937C.1040403@gmail.com> <BANLkTik+V6xfbrx07eQO-zNq9r1v03j6CQ@mail.gmail.com> <4D9B9D4A.7050006@gmail.com> <BANLkTi=zpAKKDzGiiNLG_Q=SDCgrS0t48w@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=zpAKKDzGiiNLG_Q=SDCgrS0t48w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: vwrap@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [vwrap] Statements of Consensus. Flexibity First.
X-BeenThere: vwrap@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Virtual World Region Agent Protocol - IETF working group <vwrap.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap>, <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap>
List-Post: <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap>, <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:24:13 -0000

We were and still are in discussion about VWRAP documents.

As someone that implements, they don't want to read anything like "many 
orders of magnitude" or "the best idea" or such exaggerated adjectives. 
Don't expect your ideas ever to get implemented based on such language.

Need just the facts, and the documents. Please, stop with how great you 
think your idea is and produce the documents! Please include specific 
use of the resources, LLIDL, DSD, etc.

If this continues to be just discussion and neither documentation nor 
implementation than I'm with the chair(s) to disband.

Morgaine wrote:
> The asset fetch performance gain of a protocol in which asset 
> identifiers make cross-world assets cacheable versus a protocol whose 
> asset identifiers do not allow this is an extremely large factor of 
> *many orders of magnitude* on all but the first occurrence of an 
> asset.  For all intents and purposes, avoiding the need to fetch an 
> asset over the network represents a gain of infinity, and this gain 
> may be repeated many times over.
>
> I think it's pretty uncontestable that giving VWRAP an asset 
> addressing scheme which is orders of magnitude more efficient than any 
> other scheme that has yet been proposed would be an important benefit 
> for the protocol, and highly likely to make it popular.  Conversely, 
> if it lacks this benefit then another protocol will use it and will 
> hugely out-perform VWRAP.
>
> We were talking about designing for the future.  Hash-based asset 
> addressing is a case in point, and how we handle this proposal is 
> apparently our first test case.
>
>
> Morgaine.
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============================
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com 
> <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     And... still local cache.. not vwrap.
>
>     I think it would be more wise to go with the implementations of
>     Google's and/or Siemens object identification to RFID codes. At
>     least we know this part won't exploit content.
>
>     It has further advantages than just that. I went into detail
>     awhile ago, yet with basic QM:
>     http://icyspherical.blogspot.com/2010/07/optimizing-simulations-with-basic.html
>
>     No, even given the possibilities presented, I don't think your
>     idea comes close to anything new in regards to the best. It's just
>     your preference.
>
>     Morgaine wrote:
>
>         On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Dzonatas Sol
>         <dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>
>            Your approach, besides exploitations, has the typical
>         problem to
>            assume asset IDs are only needed and are hash-able.
>
>
>
>         Asset IDs are not hash-able, it is the asset data that is
>         hashed.  The asset identifier is the hash of the asset data
>         using a defined hash digest algorithm.  The asset identifier
>         is not guessable unless you already have access to the asset.
>
>
>         Morgaine.
>
>
>
>
>         =============================
>
>
>
>                ==================
>
>                On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Dzonatas Sol
>                <dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>
>                   Again Morgaine, your appeals alone don't support
>                themselves, and
>                   your ridicule is unwelcome. If you can not honestly
>         make any
>                   serious response, please move on and don't reply to my
>                posts just
>                   to further ridicule. It's very RUDE.
>
>                   If you have any implementation of your hash-based
>         idea or
>                actual
>                   technical detailed documentation ready for
>         implementation, then
>                   introduce it. Until then, it's stuck in your head,
>         and sounds
>                   other's ideas just with your name on it. Plus
>         security by
>                   obscurity makes it as moot point.
>
>                   Documentation... ?
>
>                   Remember people tried to take one temp variable away
>         from the
>                   JPEG2000 int multiple/divide routine because the
>         idea it looks
>                   good (on paper) with one less variable. Actual
>         implementation
>                   reveals, with timed tests, it is slower when anybody
>         takes away
>                   that one temp variable.
>
>                   Morgaine wrote:
>
>                       Unfortunately your response was devoid of technical
>                content,
>                       Dzonatas.
>
>                       If you have something technical to say about
>         hash-based
>                       addressing, I would love to hear it.
>
>                       I have detailed in some depth the many benefits of
>                hash-based
>                       addressing in the article I linked, and
>         subsequently.  If
>                       other good schemes exist, we should of course
>         analyze
>                them for
>                       technical merit and compare their benefits
>         against those of
>                       hash-based addressing.
>
>                       That's the engineering process for making VWRAP
>         as good
>                as it
>                       can be.
>
>
>                       Morgaine.
>
>
>
>
>                       =========================
>
>                       On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Dzonatas Sol
>                       <dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>
>                       <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com> <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
>
>                          Morgaine, we mooted your hash-based idea.
>         This does
>                nothing to
>                          help implement asset services. The only
>         significant
>                point
>                       you made
>                          is some expression for optimization, not correct
>                functionality,
>                          which is needed first
>
>                          As for your other two, we can summarize those
>         with
>                public
>                          resources and flow (forward/reverse). Any more
>                specific network
>                          topology than that only makes it harder to
>         address. The
>                       only thing
>                          to worry about is already custom resources
>         that overlap
>                       with newer
>                          public resources.
>
>                          Morgaine wrote:
>
>                              On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Dzonatas Sol
>                              <dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com> <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>
>                       <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com> <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>>
>                              <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>
>                       <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com> <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>
>                <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com <mailto:dzonatas@gmail.com>>>>>> wrote:
>
>
>                                 Do you think we are ready to implement
>         some asset
>                       services now,
>                                 with/without complete documentation?
>
>                                 What more do you think is needed?
>
>
>                              Two or three things seem to be needed:
>
>                                 * Defining the asset addressing
>         concept is an
>                extremely
>                              important
>                                   matter, almost certainly the most
>         important
>                matter
>                       of all,
>                                   because that determines how robust and
>                scalable our
>                              worlds will
>                                   be.� I've already examined
>         alternatives for
>                that
>                       in some
>                              depth,
>                                   and the design with the best engineering
>                properties so
>                              far seems
>                                   to be universal hash-based
>         addressing.� I first
>                       described
>                              that
>                                   approach on the list here ---
>                                                      
>          http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/msg00463.html
>                                   , and referred to it in various
>         subsequent
>                       discussions.
>
>                                 * Defining the data flows between regions,
>                clients,
>                       and asset
>                                   services and which parameters
>         control the flows
>                       needs to
>                              be done
>                                   before a test asset service can be
>                implemented.�
>                       Without
>                              that,
>                                   an asset service is just a
>                network-accessible storage
>                              service,
>                                   not an asset service in the VWRAP
>         sense.�
>                Network
>                       storage
>                                   services exist already, so just
>                implementing one
>                       of those
>                              would
>                                   not advance VWRAP.
>
>                                 * We need to examine how various
>         deployment
>                patterns
>                       will
>                              use the
>                                   asset services, and how the
>         /multiple/ asset
>                       services that
>                                   interop introduces are handled.� I am
>                working on this
>                              currently.
>
>
>                              None of the above is particularly hard.�
>         I think it
>                       won't be
>                              long before we have a scheme worked out
>         and are
>                ready
>                       for some
>                              implementation work.
>
>
>                              Morgaine.
>
>
>
>
>                                          
>          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>                            
>          _______________________________________________
>                              vwrap mailing list
>                              vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>
>                <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>>
>                       <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>
>                <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>>>
>
>
>                              https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>                            
>                          --     --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
>                          Web Development, Software Engineering,
>         Virtual Reality,
>                       Consultant
>
>
>                            
>          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                       _______________________________________________
>                       vwrap mailing list
>                       vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>
>                <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>>
>                       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>                      
>
>                   --     --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
>                   Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality,
>                Consultant
>
>
>              
>          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                _______________________________________________
>                vwrap mailing list
>                vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>>
>                https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>                
>
>
>            --     --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
>            Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality,
>         Consultant
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         vwrap mailing list
>         vwrap@ietf.org <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>          
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
>     Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwrap mailing list
> vwrap@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>   


-- 
--- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant