Re: [vwrap] Call for a vote on interop BETWEEN independent virtual worlds or not

[Morgaine <[e-mail]>]

Regarding protocol independence, I agree Jonathan.

We've often expressed our desire for independence of protocols and worlds by
saying that the protocol should neither prescribe not proscribe what virtual
worlds should look like.  All that matters to us is that worlds are using
the VWRAP protocol suite to communicate with each other.  Indeed, since we
don't dictate the implementation of virtual worlds, they are defined simply
as some of the server endpoints of our protocols.

The internal implementation details of a virtual world are for that world
alone to define.  That's how we'll get progress, by allowing worlds to
evolve, while they continue to speak a common interop protocol in order to
support the inter-world needs of their users as they evolve.


Morgaine.





====================================

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Jonathan Freedman <[e-mail]>wrote;wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I believe the key is to have (in completely unambiguous language) a listing
> of features that would be supported by the greater VWRAP standard. A
> definitive listing of features, rather than use cases, seems like a more
> rational way to proceed. This can likely be distilled from the existing
> drafts. Also, as Meadhbh points out, it is important to not tie the standard
> to any existing protocol suite. As the VWRAP standard evolves, groups will
> be able to adopt it. Interoperability between VWRAP and "Second Life" style
> virtual worlds (or WoW or Eve Online or Minecraft) is outside the scope of
> this process. Which isn't to say it would not be awesome ;)
>
> Also, if we are careful, we do not exclude any type of client. The various
> transport and application level protocols needed by VWRAP are accessible
> from phat clients and web clients alike. There should be no need to describe
> the ideal end clients as we would already have a listing of supported
> feature sets.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Morgaine <[e-mail]
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Jonathan Freedman <[e-mail]
>> > wrote:
>>
>> From what I can tell the drafts do support interoperability between the
>> same *class* of virtual world. The catch is that the language needs to be
>> significantly clearer.
>>
>>
>> That sounds reasonable to me, Jonathan.  I believe that your first
>> sentence reflects everyone's understanding of our goals ever since we formed
>> the working group.  Only now has this odd "no interop between virtual
>> worlds" slant been placed on our goals.
>>
>> Judging by the responses received here, it's clear that everyone else is
>> affirming in one way or another their interest in virtual worlds that
>> interoperate.  I certainly am.  I hope that we can confirm it as a matter of
>> record with the help of the WG Chairs.
>>
>>
>> Morgaine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ===============================
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Jonathan Freedman <[e-mail]
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> From what I can tell the drafts do support interoperability between the
>>> same *class* of virtual world. The catch is that the language needs to be
>>> significantly clearer. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the
>>> introduction document should drop all references to use cases, focus on
>>> describing the context (sandbox virtual worlds) and then be merged with the
>>> foundation document.
>>>
>>> I have approached editing the Intro document several times and it always
>>> ended in despair. I believe the only rational way to move forward is to
>>> integrate it into the Foundation document as a simple overview of the
>>> context and proceed from there. If others support this direction, I would
>>> be honoured to proceed with the first cut of such a merge.
>>>
>>> I do want to state that interoperability between the *same class* of
>>> virtual worlds seems like the proper end goal. The language needs to be
>>> unambiguous and there is no point in distracting the consumer (of the ID)
>>>  with discussions of use cases. Use cases, deployment strategies and the
>>> like should be left up to interpretation. The formal documentation needs to
>>> focus on the protocol rather than implementation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jonathan Freedman
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Morgaine <
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Mike Dickson <[e-mail]>wrote;wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Put another way we're not specifying a mechanism for interconnection
>>>> between very different technologies (or more appropriately approaches to
>>>> virtual worlds).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, no Mike, it's much worse than that.  Even if the
>>>> technologies of the worlds in question are not only compatible but *
>>>> IDENTICAL*, Meadhbh claims that we are not creating a protocol for
>>>> interop BETWEEN those worlds.  At all, whatsoever.
>>>>
>>>> This cannot be allowed to stand, otherwise the entire purpose of VWRAP
>>>> as an interop protocol disappears, and instead VWRAP becomes a protocol for
>>>> building standalone, isolated worlds.  That is not what we're here for, and
>>>> it has never been --- we have affirmed the goal of interoperation between
>>>> VWs time and again on this list, repeatedly.
>>>>
>>>> This issue needs to be cleared up without ambiguity.  We can't have a
>>>> prolific draft writer writing drafts that do not reflect the goals voiced by
>>>> almost everyone in this group since OGPX/VWRAP began.  Crista's post is
>>>> merely the latest expression of concern of many.
>>>>
>>>> There is a clear disconnect here between the goal of non-interoperating
>>>> worlds, and the much more useful goal of VW interoperation that virtually
>>>> everyone else has been discussing and desiring.  We already have
>>>> non-interoperating worlds, lots of them!  Note that even Joshua mentions
>>>> interoperation of VWs in his latest post a few weeks ago, in which he
>>>> welcomed discussion of "*protocols for data transport between virtual
>>>> world instances*" --
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/msg00253.html .
>>>>
>>>> This needs resolving formally, otherwise our progress on resolving the
>>>> issues of VW interop is completely blocked.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Morgaine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ================================
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Mike Dickson <[e-mail]>wrote;wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  On 09/19/2010 10:41 PM, Morgaine wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Meadhbh Hamrick <[e-mail]>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  secondly, VWRAP is not now, nor has it ever been a protocol to enable
>>>>> interoperability BETWEEN virtual worlds.
>>>>> ...
>>>>> in short, the consensus of this group has generally been to describe
>>>>> the mechanisms one could use to build a single virtual world but does
>>>>> not dictate that this world be a singleton.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This does not reflect any consensus expressed in this group whatsoever.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect we're getting wrapped around the axle on terminology and what
>>>>> "single virtual world" means.  At least I'd like to interpret it that way as
>>>>> it then matches the discussion over the past months.  Put another way we're
>>>>> not specifying a mechanism for interconnection between very different
>>>>> technologies (or more appropriately approaches to virtual worlds).  It's a
>>>>> single virtual world because it shares a single set of assumptions about how
>>>>> the services that make it up work together to provide services.  If I change
>>>>> in a significant way a service that doesn't match what VWRAP documents then
>>>>> I'm not able to participate in the VWRAP virtual world any longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The comment about a singleton is on target I think with this
>>>>> interpretation.  I can create a walled garden that doesn't interconnect with
>>>>> other "services".  It's using VWRAP and so a part of the VWRAP "Virtual
>>>>> World".
>>>>>
>>>>> If thats not a correct interpretation then yes we have a huge issue.
>>>>> If it is correct then perhaps we need to refine how we define terms since
>>>>> its caused alot of confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> vwrap mailing list
>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonathan Freedman
>>> President
>>> Open Metaverse Foundation
>>> [phone]
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Jonathan Freedman
> President
> Open Metaverse Foundation
> [phone]
>